Stones vs Guns
“When people decide to be free, there is no power in the world that can stop them.”
- Archbishop Desmond Tutu
The Tibetan people have decided to be free. You can see them in the streets. You can see them shouting. You can see them riding on horses and hoisting Tibetan flags atop Chinese government buildings. You can also see them burning Chinese flags, razing police stations to the ground, and breaking mostly things that belong to the Chinese government. After 50 years of living under oppression, Tibetans are desperate and we’re showing it. We’re crying out that we too want the same freedom that the rest of the world enjoys.
It saddens us to see many in the mainstream media sensationalizing and focusing on the story of “Tibetan violence.” Is this really the story? Are Tibetans really the perpetrators of the violence?
First of all, people need to understand that Tibetans have waged perhaps the most peaceful, nonviolent organized movement the world has ever known. The methods that we have used in our struggle are consistently nonviolent, often to the point of being passive and ineffective. After 50 years of silent suffering, a few Tibetans are throwing rocks at Chinese government buildings and burning Chinese military cars. And yes, they’re burning Chinese flags and have also raided a few Chinese shops. However, by dramatizing these actions as violent, we turn a blind eye to 50 years of systematic Chinese violence in Tibet. In comparison to 6000 monasteries burned to dust and 1.2 million Tibetans killed by the Chinese government, Tibetans burning Chinese flags and military vehicles is nothing but nonviolent.
Of course it does appear that a handful of Chinese civilians may have been hurt or even killed in some of the riots. The numbers are hard to confirm because of the consistence with which Beijing censors information and manufactures incidents to support their propaganda. But if these reports are true, of course we find it regrettable. But this does not change the fact that, as Nelson Mandela said, “the occupier bears prime responsibility for enduring conflict.” The true source of these riots and the violence, perceived or real, is the Chinese government’s illegal occupation of Tibet - and we must never lose sight of this basic context. Even if Tibetans wield guns and launch a violent attack tomorrow, the Chinese government is squarely to blame because Tibetans are only responding to the Chinese government’s oppression. Many would say that Beijing is lucky that the Tibetans are only throwing stones right now.
And anyway, how much violence can mostly unarmed monks and lay Tibetans really commit against Chinese tanks, armed police and paramilitaries? China keeps all the guns, and uses them too - and yet they want to cry about Tibetans breaking windows?
This is laughable, and the world and the media should laugh at this example of the Chinese empire’s hypocritical self-pity. So if we want to talk about violence, fine let’s talk. But let’s not forget who’s the perpetrator of violence here - the gun-wielding Chinese troops or the stone-wielding Tibetans.
Posted: March 20th, 2008 under News.
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Comment from S. Cai
Time: March 20, 2008, 10:16 pm
First of all, your arguments hit your own face. The Tibetans rioters didn’t have guns, and yet they killed many innocent people. Imagine how many people they will kill if they had guns?
I am not suggesting that the Tibetans are violent in nature. Quite on the contrary, I agree with you that the Chinese government is primarily responsible for this unfortunate incidence. But I still don’t agree that Tibetan independence is the best solution to this. To me, it appears that the best solution is for the Chinese government to talk sincerely to the Dalai Lama and carry out his middle way, that is, to grant the Tibetan people genuine cultural and economic automony.
I reiterate my stance here: I advocate your struggle for the freedom of Tibetan people. But I seriously disagree with your call for Tibetan independence.
Comment from Jigdral
Time: March 20, 2008, 10:26 pm
How many years can some people exist before they’re allowed to be free? How many times can a man turn his head, pretending he just doesn’t see?
The cycle is intensifying. In times of great distress it is helpful to look at the horizon, not down at the ants biting one’s legs.
We’re trying to establish a Transcendent Nation. This is about realizing that fighting over pieces of earth and dominating other people’s belief systems is outmoded. This is a chance to see through duality in a most practical way. This is not about Chinese and Tibetans, old and young, but a unified humanity.
In order for healing to occur, there is an intensification of feeling ill at ease. That is the critical time to be still. This leads to purification of the energy and ultimately realization of emptiness. With the restoration of Shambhala on Earth, there is going to be a process of purification.
As Vajrayana Buddhists, we need to ride the currents with our bodhisattva intent. The young people need to orient to the elders and respect the values of the elders. These are time-tested truths.
All the lamas who have spent their entire lives, generations upon generations, will not be destroyed by a few thrown stones. Compassion is the only alternative.
Have you forgotten that all beings are your mothers? How many lives do you want to spend in the hell-realms?
Change is here. Hold steady. As a great sage asked, “How many times must a man look up before he can see the sky?”
Comment from Rich
Time: March 20, 2008, 11:47 pm
S. Cai, if you claim Tibetans “killed many innocent people”, let’s see the evidence. So far absolutely none has been produced. Among the “evidence” of “Tibetans” doing minor physical harm to Chinese, friends of mine casually analyzing the images have found several Chinese dressed up in Tibetan clothing, supporting the claims that are coming out of Lhasa’s rightful population about what the government staged.
Maybe Tibetans did kill some Chinese people. Maybe not. Maybe those Chinese people were innocent or maybe they were informants responsible for sending Tibetans to prison. The fact of the matter is that we won’t know and can’t know because the government is not allowing any independent investigation. But with all of the government’s physical might, if they’re still unable to produce a shred of convincing evidence, any reasonable person’s natural assumption is that they’re lying.
Here in the civilized world, we have a concept of “innocent until proven guilty” which your precious China has yet to discover.
Comment from david
Time: March 21, 2008, 12:22 am
From video clips I have seen on YOUTube which is blocked by Chinese government, some clips were shot by western travelers, I saw riot, I saw crimes that were committed towards innocent people and businesses.
I don’t know how people with righteous minds can condone this kind of behavior, how people like you can be so open-minded sympathized with the kind of behavior that cast terror to other innocent people. or just the innocent people in china are no longer innocent because they are living in a communist regime?
For Tibetans, if you believe in independent Tibet, fight by all means, but please don’t commit this kind of cowardly act towards innocent civilians, (some are women and children). Demonstrated in front of the government buildings, heck, burn a government building for a change. Because only cowards initiate these kinds of terror attacks on innocent civilians, for they can’t fight back.
Comment from Tian
Time: March 21, 2008, 3:50 am
This is my final post, since I still think that most people are getting the wrong picture. Okay, first, to acknowledge the individual pro-independence westerners; your causes are good but you are not seeing the big picture. Think about it for a second, what was the catalyst that started your passionate pursuit for the freedom of someone else’s country? in your country, how did you even hear about Tibet independence in the first place? Random acts of sympathizing kindness that just happened by chance to become highly organized and politically influential is too naive for me to believe.
The reason is because again, like I said earlier, the government chooses to provide you this information. Why don’t CNN, MSNBC, ABC, BBC, FOX..etc. focus on the Iraq and Afghan war anymore? Keep in mind, Americans, your fellow 19 and 20 year old countrymen from the lower income bracket families are still being blown up there over a worthless cause because of the decisions made by you, the financially secure, whose sons and daughters are safe in some school. By interfering in another country’s internal affairs, you are instigating war and proposing to slaughter more innocent poor people from both sides. Please think rationally now so that you don’t embarrass yourself later by blaming your president after your son/daughter had to serve and was killed.
The truth of the matter as it stands is this. Although the crude Han soldiers did rough up the religious elite in Tibet during the 50s-70s, which even the modern party leaders condemns, the Han harbor no ill will or western styled “genocidal intentions” toward fellow law abiding Tibetans. The western media is portraying China as essentially the “anti-christ” of politics. The scapegoat/black sheep for all present domestic problems so that they can fulfill their agenda and fill up their coffers. China bashing is derived from a rich history of western ignorance of the orient, innate prejudice, baseless hysteria, and irrational Sinophobia. Ignorant, irrational, hypocritical, and petty westerners will dislike China no matter what it does. If it shows weakness by acquiescing to ridiculous western demands, support Tibetan independence, and stop its current economic development to “help its people”, westerners will mock the Chinese because of their poverty. But if China develops and stays strong, these same fools will say that China is inhumane, dictatorial, and just short of bloodthirsty savage. Well, I think there’s no point enlightening people who refuse to be enlightened. Most Chinese leaders realize this, and out of self protection, they are beefing up the military to support the economic growth. If you are hysterical and afraid, it’s your own fault. Be afraid.
Comment from Tian
Time: March 21, 2008, 3:51 am
Although there are many problems with the Chinese government, such as corruption, inequity, and a lack of sophistication, they are not inherently evil. Indeed, they try very hard to help their people, far more than the U.S. govt. does toward average Americans (from what I saw living here). Most importantly, they view all the different ethnicities AS THEIR OWN PEOPLE. In direct contrast with the civilized U.S. In international dealings, they have acted purely businesslike, essentially free from predatory, idealistic politics. Compare this with the U.S. or England, when American gas prices shot up, the American people aren’t nice and caring of other people anymore, they don’t do business. They “gotta git what’s ma’ine”. They butchered the Iraqis for their oil and essentially didn’t even bother creating a self righteous political front. There were no mutual gains there.
But all of that aside, lets see what will happen in the hypothetical sense that the government supported Tibetan independence. Tibet before Han liberation or “invasion” as you would call it, was in the feudal age. High, powerful Llama elites had absolute power over life and death. The average people were treated like slaves. And their population was decreasing at a scary rate. Essentially they were dying off. After the “occupation” the Tibetans have lived far better than ever. But now, lets suppose the Han leaves, Tibet is high up on the rooftop of the world, nearly unreachable by land without significant difficulty, and its people, from what I saw, are incompetent in trade and lazy. On top of this is the fact that there’s very few arable land up there. How will the Tibetans support themselves in this globalized, competitive modern age? Do you people know how much food and other subsidies the Chinese government pump into that region each year just to keep them alive? Who will feed them after the Han leave? The Americans? British? And god forbid, the Indians? They have enough problems of their own.
Americans, you guys have enough problems on your plate already. Please stop your naivety, think rationally, and analyze the situation and its consequences. Don’t just label rationality propaganda. Think. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have drained your treasury, Bush wrecked the economy, and according to most American economists the next 10 years will be pretty grim. If you guys have to support Tibet along with all these other things, you would have essentially nailed the coffin. But if you guys choose this, then take full responsibility afterwards and don’t run away after you see that you can’t extricate yourself from the quagmire. Don’t steal from another weak country in order to balance your checkbooks.
Comment from Tian
Time: March 21, 2008, 4:03 am
And please, by the time that you the common average American people realized that you have ruined your American superiority and have to struggle in equal competition with the rest of the world, without the whip of your military, don’t cry then. Don’t engage in idiotic racist jingoism to purge foreigners who compete for jobs in your country. And please, don’t resort to war, because that is the dumbest and most uncivilized thing a state can do in this age.
I support full freedom for Tibet, because i think it’s economically unreasonable to keep it within the fold of the empire. But out of kindness and consideration for the Tibetan people, I think it is in their best interest to remain as a part of China. Thank you.
Comment from Rich
Time: March 21, 2008, 5:39 am
David, read what I said again about independent documentation. This is not the first time in Tibet’s history that the authorities have fabricated stories to incriminate Tibetans and it probably won’t be the last. In the past, the truth always eventually came to light. And once again keep in mind that it’s not so easy to tell who’s innocent. You really have no business judging a people who have been subjugated under foreign occupation for 59 years when they fight back against the occupier.
Comment from Rich
Time: March 21, 2008, 5:39 am
By the way did you even read what Lhadon-la wrote? I’m just repeating the point of the main article…
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 21, 2008, 12:12 pm
To Tian:
++++ The reason is because again, like I said earlier, the government chooses to provide you this information. Why don’t CNN, MSNBC, ABC, BBC, FOX..etc. focus on the Iraq and Afghan war anymore? ++++
Why don’t you look through the same prism at Chinese government, where unlike other countries freedom of press doesn’t exist and is the government’s puppet?
++++ By interfering in another country’s internal affairs, you are instigating war and proposing to slaughter more innocent poor people from both sides. ++++
It is not an interference, because the Tibetans are asking international support and those sympathetic with their cause will help them. It’s between the Tibetans and the international community. Why are you sad about it?
++++ Although the crude Han soldiers did rough up the religious elite in Tibet during the 50s-70s, which even the modern party leaders condemns, the Han harbor no ill will or western styled “genocidal intentions” toward fellow law abiding Tibetans. ++++
Oh and what about compensating the Tibetans for that “mistake”? What are Tibetans to do with the “condemnation”?
And did you mean “tibetans favoring china” when you said “law abiding Tibetans”? Because since when is expressing displeasure about a government peacefully, unlawful?
++++ How will the Tibetans support themselves in this globalized, competitive modern age? Do you people know how much food and other subsidies the Chinese government pump into that region each year just to keep them alive? Who will feed them after the Han leave? The Americans? British? And god forbid, the Indians? They have enough problems of their own. ++++
Oh so the Chinese are there to feed the hungry Tibetans. This is news to me. All the Han migrants in Tibet are there to feed them. Yes. And when Tibetans say they don’t want to be fed, you bring tanks and army to shove food down their throats. Good mama !!
++++ Most importantly, they view all the different ethnicities AS THEIR OWN PEOPLE. ++++
Oh you see this as a virtue? Especially when other ethnicities do not want to be “like-han-chinese”? Why do you force your love?
++++ But all of that aside, lets see what will happen in the hypothetical sense that the government supported Tibetan independence. Tibet before Han liberation or “invasion” as you would call it, was in the feudal age. High, powerful Llama elites had absolute power over life and death. The average people were treated like slaves. ++++
Before you go on with your rant, mind that the Tibetan people want it. They are demanding it. They find it much blissful than the communist alternative. And to “enlighten” you, Dalai Lama has already announced Tibet will be democratic. They already have elected leaders.
++++ And their population was decreasing at a scary rate. Essentially they were dying off. After the “occupation” the Tibetans have lived far better than ever. ++++
The chinese have taught you very well. You are a nice parrot.
++++ I support full freedom for Tibet, because i think it’s economically unreasonable to keep it within the fold of the empire. But out of kindness and consideration for the Tibetan people, I think it is in their best interest to remain as a part of China. ++++
You are such a bastard. And Tibet surely needs independence from your likes. Thanks for supporting their cause no matter what the reason is. 
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 21, 2008, 12:15 pm
Found this in a news article and just wanted to share an idea that could be powerful:
“Director Steven Spielberg withdrew as an artistic adviser to the games after pressure from Farrow, chairwoman of Dream for Darfur, which wants companies to lobby Beijing. It has warned China that it risks having its games remembered as the ‘genocide Olympics’ and is issuing ‘report cards’ to rate sponsors on their Darfur policies.”
The idea to rank the sponsors based on their policies and concerns towards Tibet and then releasing it publicly is in my opinion a very powerful idea.
Thanks.
Comment from Tian
Time: March 22, 2008, 3:43 pm
Haha okay, this is too addictive. I guess I will post one more. Gubbi, I’m a student of economics and mathematics and I am completely impartial to politics. Yes, that’s right, I don’t support any side and I don’t hate any country. I only care about the economics as a result of the politics. In fact I really didn’t even bother following politics until recently when I’m seeing a resurgence of misunderstandings and sinophobia whipped up everywhere in the west. This is the reason why I am writing these posts.
Reading from your post, I am guessing you are American since you are so fast to make political judgements. And I think I confused you at the end. Oh well! I simply told you what the other side is saying and what I have seen. That’s all. If you want to call me a parrot of the communist state, then you have completely missed my point. Truth comes from analyzing both sides. I know very well that the Chinese communist party uses propaganda to control its people but at the same time I hope you also realize the political mechanisms used by democracies to control their own citizens. From what I saw, the only difference between the controls is that in democracies the govt. has more sophisticated tools. If you label everything I say as repeating propaganda, then I can only say that you are more brainwashed than myself.
I know very well that the educated Tibetans want freedom. But in my initial posts, I wanted to know if there were some tangible, rational, materialistic reason for doing so. Knowing human nature, I have stopped believing in idealism. If without outside aid, the new Tibetan state (if it manage to get established) will most certainly falter economically. This is because of the limitations there. From an economical perspective, the Tibetans have everything to gain from staying within the Chinese state. Although ruled in the name of the PRC, the Tibetans have equal representation in the central state assembly, fairly large amount of subsidies and other unfair benefits. There’s no racism or bigotry toward them in China. In fact, the state has put in every effort to promote their culture after their wrongful purges during the 50s - 70s. The reason that they are monitoring the local monks/nuns is because the monks don’t just practice religion. They participate in seditious politics. And any country will suppress this out of consideration for public security. Take the case of the Waco incident in democratic America. What did the American government do? They killed every member of that religious group.
The Tibetans gain everything. During the last century before China built the railroad to Tibet, every Tibetan is subsidized by the state. Free food is transported there every month at a time when the rest of China is starving and dying. As a result, this has fostered laziness and incompetence among them. When they see today’s smart, ambitious, and industrious Han merchants enter Tibet to make a fortune, and that they have to compete fairly for once, there will obviously be resentment. This will most certainly be news to you. Why do you think your democratic government will tell you this? They don’t have any incentive to show anything positive about China. The west was and still is paranoid about communist govts. And since you don’t understand Chinese, and you are a patriotic brainwashed American, you will obviously label this as Chinese propaganda.
A parallel to the situation is the issue of anti-semitism in Europe and America. When the smart, industrious Jewish people made money in the west, the stupid, lazy, and incompetent locals did everything to suppress them out of resentment. What was their justification? THIS IS MY HOMELAND and the Jews don’t belong. Even though the Jewish people are just as patriotic and loyal.
But lets make another analogy. Suppose a Chinese merchant went to an European or North American nation and managed to push out the local competitors in an industry as a result of his diligence, intelligence, and competence, is this Chinese merchant’s fault? What did he do wrong? Are you going to say that he should be prevented from doing business because it is not his homeland even though he follows every rule of conventional business conduct?
Comment from Tian
Time: March 22, 2008, 4:47 pm
Now you might say that the Chinese merchants never asked the Tibetans for permission. Then I would like to ask you this, why do they object to fair competition but say nothing to free subsidies? They do have a choice to not accept. The CCP will certainly not “force-feed” them if they don’t want the free benefits. After all, there are other more impoverished provinces that need more help. Instead of starving through starvation protests, why not just refuse the regular food stamps during the 70s and 80s? The communist officials will certainly not force them to eat the state’s produce.
Also, if the Tibetans really hate the Chinese so much why do they still participate in Chinese social programs? There are quite a few Tibetans who choose to go to Peking University (one of the best in the country) rather than one in Lhasa. Why? Why do they try to become “Han Chinese” by getting a very “Han Chinese” education? Certainly no Chinese will force them to have a better education. Each Tibetan student in Peking University took the spot of a Han counterpart. Also, I saw many Tibetan merchants/businessmen in Beijing. They are making fortunes there and I can tell you honestly that they are enjoying the Han ways of doing business. Some of those businessmen are living like kings over there. If they hate the Chinese so much why do they still do business there? Why don’t they go back to Tibet and live the life of a poor feudal peasant? Those Tibetans are allowed to do whatever they want.
On the issue of their protest, you are ignorant and fanatical if you say it’s peaceful. Are you serious? Go on to youtube. Take a good look! This year’s protest is violent. Tibetans, both religious and secular, attacked innocent Hans including women and children. A few of the women were burned alive and there are pictures available on Yahoo news showing their co-workers mourning them. If you say that these are staged by the CCP then you are mad, no, fanatically mad. And then there’s no point talking to you.
No state in this world will ever tolerate violent protests. Even democratic countries use force against these. Take the anti-Iraq war protest in New York a few years ago. It was far more peaceful than the one in Lhasa and yet the NY Police still beat a few protestors when they got a little too rowdy. This year, the Hungarian police beat some of the Tibetan protestors there when they got out of hand. This is the convention anywhere. In light of this, the CCP response is not at all cruel. Politics and public security require different measures of treatment.
“Before you go on with your rant, mind that the Tibetan people want it. They are demanding it. They find it much blissful than the communist alternative.”
Perhaps you are right. Many communist leaders and Chinese youth realize this now. Initially, they just think that the Tibetans are lazy and backward. And they think that when the Tibetans see that they are becoming wealthy, they will automatically appreciate the “modern” ways and incorporate themselves into the fabrics of the modern Chinese republic. But now, the Chinese people do realize that these people want to be poor. They would prefer the beggarly monk’s drabs rather than the princely robes. And this also implies that they have no qualms with dying off since the country is not sustainable by itself economically. This is irrational, and to tell you the truth, I think the communist govt. is at a complete loss without any idea of what to do. If the Tibetans rule themselves without any outside help, they will face the greatest economic crisis because of their location and the fact that most Tibetans in Tibet are uneducated.
I welcome any comment you might make. But I will try my best to stay away from here since this is getting too addictive and time consuming.
Best wishes to everyone on here, especially the Tibetan separatists. I sincerely hope we can find some way of getting along that is outside the confines of politics and nationalism. Both of which are stupid and an insult to the human spirit. Peace to you all.
Comment from Tian
Time: March 22, 2008, 5:12 pm
Oh, before leaving…I just had an idea. And I would greatly appreciate any suggestions or comments on this. In the past, Chinese emperors have always adopted a policy of limited overlordship to Tibet. Or, in better terms, a patron to the religious elite there. Perhaps we should try to reinstate this relationship. China should move its militaristic arms of the govt. out of Tibet and establish Tibet as a sort of “religious theme park” unique only to China where the entire region of Tibet is more autonomous and its govt is focused on religion and the traditional “blissful” way of life. The Dalai Llama will play a pivotal role in the politics there and the Tibetans can practice their religion as they see fit as long as Tibet stays politically and militaristically neutral and they accept China as their overlord and military protector. Tibet must acknowledge itself as a part of China on paper. Chinese citizens are allowed limited tourist visas to this “religious holy land” to purify and cleanse themselves of capitalist sins which is wrecking havoc to the the nation as a whole. But they cannot live there permanently without an official approval from the Tibetan/Llama government. All foreign visiting visas are to be handled by Tibetan and Chinese govts. jointly.
Finally, a part of Tibet’s annual operating budget will be supported by the Chinese state in response, the Tibetan govt. headed by the supreme Dalai Llama must pledge unwaivering political allegiance and provide steadfast religious counseling and support to China, and most importantly Tibet must vow military neutrality.
I think this would create the best outcome for both Tibetans and Hans. Tibetans need their quiet, graceful bliss while the Han majority are in serious need of religious guidance….RIGHT NOW.
Comment from Meow
Time: March 22, 2008, 7:31 pm
Nationalism is stupid and ignorant no matter who is perpetuating it, be they Han or Tibetan. China isn’t trying to make the Tibetans “like the Chinese” in the sense that you imply. Too many Tibet supporters on this blog and elsewhere merely cry out for what amounts to schism and an “us vs them” mentality. “we’re not Chinese, so we don’t want to be part of China!”. It’s repulsive ethno-hatred at it’s worst, and at its best it is simply short-sighted ignorance.
How can you tell who is Chinese and who is Tibetan in these grainy cel-phone videos on Youtube, etc? Many Chinese in Tibet come from ethnic areas anyway, and don’t fit the typical “Han look”. There is a dreadful quasi-racist thread running through a lot of what you post here.
You dream up any excuse to explain away Tibetans doing dreadful violence out of ethnic hatred, but when China does something despicable you’ll jump right on it without another thought.
As someone else posted on another entry, this is not about freedom anymore, it’s just degrading into ethnic Tibetan on Han/Han on Tibetan violence. If there were race riots in the US where blacks were assaulting whites or vice-versa in the manner that is going on in Tibet we would all be condemning it as atrocious, and yet you sit back and smile because the unrest gives you an excuse to say, “see, look, they don’t like it there.” Congratulations.
Comment from Rich
Time: March 23, 2008, 12:27 pm
Tian, you still simply don’t get it. Making Tibet into a “religious theme park” is what China has been doing for the past 10+ years, and it’s one of the reasons Tibetans hate China so much. It’s about colonizing and commoditizing Tibetans and their culture as an exhibit for ignorant foreigners (whether Chinese or western) to come “look at the natives”.
Aside from that phrase, which perhaps I’m misinterpreting but which still seems extremely offensive, the idea you put forth (non-interference in Tibetan affairs, stepping out of people’s lives, preventing Chinese migration into Tibet, moving the military out of Tibet, etc.) is EXACTLY what the Dalai Lama has been proposing for 20 years now. It’s amusing to see Chinese finally coming to the same conclusion on their own.
Comment from Rich
Time: March 23, 2008, 12:32 pm
Meow, someone is Tibetan if they consider the Tibetan national flag their flag, and Chinese if they consider the Chinese national flag their flag. You’re correct that the notions of race and ethnicity are pretty fuzzy, but the idea of a common identity in struggle for freedom is not. The expanse of the Tibetan uprising across places characterized by many dialects, religious traditions, and genetic pools is proof that there is a much larger idea of “Tibetan” that unites people across the country, and that as a whole, they strive for an end to subjugation as part of the Chinese state.
Comment from spysmustgo
Time: March 23, 2008, 2:15 pm
Dear Tian,
Many of your ideas, such as a netural Tibet, and China taking care of defense/security of Tibet is the same ideas that HH Dalai Lama has.
I can see that you are a rational, non-idealistic person who try to figure out workable solutions for a peaceful and stable China.
Thats great! At the same time, I have to disagree with a couple of the facts you present:
1. Tibetans are being discriminated in Tibet and China by Han-chinese.
2. Tibetans doesnt want to be poor, but they dont want chinese colonization of Tibet. Tibet is currently the POOREST area in China, with education and health care very low, this is not because Tibetans doesnt want education, but because of the lack of good education or the prevalence of chinese education (many parents send their children to India for Tibetan education at great risk)
3. Tibetans dont need your subsidies, we need to manage our own affairs, without a han-chinese party secretary who tells us what is best for tibetans. Tibetans doesnt want to go to Beijing to study, we want to create our own excellent schools and universities in Tibet, which is managed by Tibetans. It is chinese government policy to send Tibetan middle school students to Beijing and Shanghai so that they will become like Chinese. Tibetan parents have no choice, but everyone resents this colonial policy.
4. Tibet can be self-sustained..Hu Yaobang started to initiate a policy in the 80s where chinese in Tibet was ordered to leave the area and tibetans were given real autonomy. Unfortunately, Hu Yaobang was discredited by the CCP and didnt manage to implement these wise and rational policies.
Finally, if there is brave politicans in CCP, they need to change their Tibet policy,
a. Stop moving more han-chinese into Tibet
b. Let Tibetan govern their own area
This will create a stable Tibet and a stable China, that will be interesting for tourists to visit and it will be good for China as a source for religious and moral guidance.
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 24, 2008, 7:36 am
++++ In fact I really didn’t even bother following politics until recently when I’m seeing a resurgence of misunderstandings and sinophobia whipped up everywhere in the west. ++++
You don’t follow politics, but still deem it your right to comment on them?
++++ Reading from your post, I am guessing you are American since you are so fast to make political judgements. ++++
Don’t be so judgmental. I am not what you think I am. And you don’t have to cite American atrocities to justify Chinese ones.
++++ I know very well that the educated Tibetans want freedom…. Knowing human nature, I have stopped believing in idealism. ++++
That is reason enough to grant them freedom? Why look into their economic woes? Which nation didn’t have economic problems when they became independent from colonial forces? You might have discarded idealism, but don’t force it on others.
++++ From an economical perspective, the Tibetans have everything to gain from staying within the Chinese state. ++++
And what about the cultural perspective? And Dalai Lama actually supports remaining within China, but with religious and cultural freedom.
++++ The reason that they are monitoring the local monks/nuns is because the monks don’t just practice religion. They participate in seditious politics. ++++
Again if praising and being loyal to their spiritual leader is termed “seditious politics”, is it Tibetans’ fault?
++++ Free food is transported there every month at a time when the rest of China is starving and dying. ++++
And you call yourself an economist and still believe crap like this?
++++ As a result, this has fostered laziness and incompetence among them. When they see today’s smart, ambitious, and industrious Han merchants enter Tibet to make a fortune, and that they have to compete fairly for once, there will obviously be resentment. ++++
Classic !! So, why do you still give them subsidies and food? Because you want the Han merchants to live off of them.
++++ The Tibetans gain everything. ++++
They are not here for shopping or bargaining. So no thanks Mr. Economist.
++++ Why do you think your democratic government will tell you this? ++++
We don’t need our governments to tell us anything. We have got our own brains to see, think and react. Unlike yours’ the government is made or dissolved by the people. There are no two things called “government thinking” and “peoples thinking”. People are entitled to hold different opinions, and not forced to accept government policies. In fact, the government itself is not unanimous about all its decisions. Such freedom in thought might understandably frighten you and is unfortunate.
++++ But lets make another analogy. Suppose a Chinese merchant went to an European or North American nation and managed to push out the local competitors in an industry as a result of his diligence, intelligence, and competence, is this Chinese merchant’s fault? ++++
No it is not. And I shall oppose it if they are opposed. But it’ll be this Chinese merchant’s fault if he becomes their “ruler”, if he starts deciding what is “patriotic” and what is not. If he starts deciding what is “criminal” and what is not. Get the difference?
++++ The communist officials will certainly not force them to eat the state’s produce. ++++
Of course they won’t. But they’ll force them not to hoist their national flag or posses Dalai Lama’s pictures.
++++ Each Tibetan student in Peking University took the spot of a Han counterpart. Also, I saw many Tibetan merchants/businessmen in Beijing. They are making fortunes there and I can tell you honestly that they are enjoying the Han ways of doing business. ++++
So now you want to be a racist, but still want to claim Tibetans as your own people. If someone enjoys following Han ways, its their right to enjoy it. If someone doesn’t, thats their right too. Why paint all Tibetans red?
++++ If they hate the Chinese so much why do they still do business there? Why don’t they go back to Tibet and live the life of a poor feudal peasant? ++++
Those who hate don’t. Those who don’t mind do. Those who hate may still do for purely economic reasons. And why do you persist on claiming their ways of life as inferior to that of Han chinese? “poor feudal peasants”???? They are under democracy.
++++ Tibetans, both religious and secular, attacked innocent Hans including women and children ++++
Oh so “women and children” are supposed to provide for the sweet spot. I am not claiming the whole of the protests were peaceful. In fact in this very blog I have opposed the use of violence by them. Look at the post titled “The occupier’s Burden” for reasons why they are actually not “expected” to be non-violent.
See this link for more info: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/24/world/asia/24tibet.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=th
++++ No state in this world will ever tolerate violent protests. ++++
Of course. But why did the peaceful march turn into a violent protest? And Tibetans don’t consider China as “state” anyway.
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 24, 2008, 7:49 am
++++ In light of this, the CCP response is not at all cruel. ++++
Does anybody know the actual CCP response, to decide whether the reaction was cruel or not?
++++ They would prefer the beggarly monk’s drabs rather than the princely robes. ++++
It is not for you to decide whether it is beggarly monk’s drabs or a noble man’s robe. or if it is princely robes or a murderous power hungry monstor’s drabs.
++++ If the Tibetans rule themselves without any outside help, they will face the greatest economic crisis because of their location and the fact that most Tibetans in Tibet are uneducated. ++++
You don’t have to worry about that, since I am very sure they’ll get lots of external help and I hope China will continue to be generous.
++++ I sincerely hope we can find some way of getting along that is outside the confines of politics and nationalism. Both of which are stupid and an insult to the human spirit. ++++
Wow Those were some very noble thoughts. Thanks.
++++ Oh, before leaving…I just had an idea. And I would greatly appreciate any suggestions or comments on this. ++++
You are speaking out Dalai Lama’s mind there. But it is very hard to materialize, since CCP is opposed to religious practices and any amount autonomy to Tibet will lead to similar demands by numerous others. But still initiating diplomatic talks with Dalai Lama is the first step.
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 24, 2008, 8:03 am
To meow:
++++“we’re not Chinese, so we don’t want to be part of China!”. It’s repulsive ethno-hatred at it’s worst, and at its best it is simply short-sighted ignorance.++++
I agree. It is not right.
++++ You dream up any excuse to explain away Tibetans doing dreadful violence out of ethnic hatred, but when China does something despicable you’ll jump right on it without another thought. ++++
Actually no. Many, including Dalai Lama are criticizing what Tibetans did. And they are criticizing the Chinese response too.
++++ and yet you sit back and smile because the unrest gives you an excuse to say, “see, look, they don’t like it there.” ++++
No. because it is still about freedom (and not independence). Freedom to practice their religion and preserve their culture. The hatred towards Hans is not based on notions of superiority.
There have been other good thoughts by spysmustgo and Rich. I am liking the quality of discussions here.
The first steps towards resolution of Tibetan crisis from the Chinese side has begun and I hope many other Chinese will lend their support to this: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/24/world/asia/24china.html?ref=asia
Comment from Tian
Time: March 24, 2008, 12:33 pm
Well, first, I do not speak for all Chinese. I have no idea what the Uighurs and Miaos would think on this matter. And I don’t even speak for the Han majority. Instead, I speak from the perspective of an observant, rational humanist who is interested in promoting the welfare of mankind through rationalism regardless of national boundaries or cultural divides. In this respect, don’t think that all modern Chinese are coming to the same conclusions. By putting my posts in ANY political context or delegate me to any side shows you are still confused. I merely state unbiased observations, opinions, and solutions to current problems.
But I have always marveled at the irrationalism that propel people to engage in such blind, fervent political crusades. Western supporters, you are more vociferous and ferocious on Tibetan independence than the Tibetans themselves. And yet, I dare say you know far less of the situation than them. Don’t you think this is ridiculous and laughable? As long as you can’t read Chinese, and don’t understand the historical and cultural context from their side, you will ALWAYS BE ARGUING FROM A BIASED STANDPOINT. And in that case, an unfair, unjust, and ignorant standpoint.
To the Americans on here, think of the Iraqis and Afghanis. They are good, peaceful, honest people too, worthy of passionate support. With no aggressive political intentions, I think you should divert your fanatical zeal toward stopping the Iraq and Afghan wars. This is more rational. First, you certainly know more about that than Tibet and second, their oppression is FAR WORSE than the Tibetans. They are slaughtered like dogs in their own homeland and they are being violently colonized against their will. Also, by stopping those wars, you help your own economy. Kill two birds with one stone, as you people would say.
To the young Americans on here, again, think rationally. It’s great that you are passionate about humanity at your age and not bent on making lots of money. This shows you have a good heart, but also keep in mind that you have such a luxury because your parents are supporting you and/or you don’t have to support others. But this will change one day, think about the consequences then.
To Rich, I will stop debating this with you because it is not worth it. You are an average, ignorant middle/upper middle class American who doesn’t understand, tolerate, or respect the fact that there’s a reason to why people from other cultures think differently. Perhaps this is because so many foreigners have to mold their own cultures in the United States which created the effect that you think you know how the rest of the world works.
Please don’t be offended, I am merely stating the facts. You don’t understand. If you know what I am talking about, then you wouldn’t even suggest the idea that I’m proposing “Disneyland” with the phrase “religious theme park”.
Comment from Tian
Time: March 24, 2008, 12:33 pm
To answer spysmustgo,
1. I’m really really doubtful of this one, can you give me some facts/examples. If these exist, they may have been misunderstandings such as favoritism in the workplace as a result of one worker sucking up better.
2. Tibetans don’t want to be poor. That’s good. But I can assure you that if there’s zero outside help and the Tibetans do it on their own, you guys will be far poorer than you live now. Tibet is the poorest region in China because you guys fight with us all the time while we send free supplies to you. And also because of your geographical location.
3. Well, that’s disheartening. The tens of thousands of other Hans who died from starvation to feed you people during the critical period died for nothing. No worse, they are cursed at for doing so. Wonderful.
I didn’t know that Tibetan childrens were forced to attend school in Beijing. As a Beijingner, this is a first for me. I personally didn’t see many Tibetan kids when I was in grade school over there. But if this is true, then this is condemnable.
4. You are right, Hu should have stayed. He was a good man. But the political climate during that period was insane.
On the other hand, I can’t imagine how wonderful a state Tibet would be if it is ruled according to old principles. Wouldn’t this mean religious dominance in everything? Its fashionable today to have separation of state and religion in government. But if you guys rule independently, religion will be the state right?
That would be a god awful thing in my honest opinion.
Comment from Meow
Time: March 24, 2008, 3:28 pm
Rich,
“someone is Tibetan if they consider the Tibetan national flag their flag, and Chinese if they consider the Chinese national flag their flag.”
Yes, this is true, from a purely semantic standpoint (meaning I am an American because I am a citizen of America), but I don’t see your overall point here. It also serves to obscure the fact that there are Tibetans who are perfectly fine with being “Chinese” as you would put it (i.e. having the Chinese flag as theirs). Using such terms interchangeably between their ethnic and political dimensions, or trying to obscure the situation by doing so, is questionable, logically in the first instance and morally in the second.
Next, the reason the riots and protests are widespread is because ethnic Tibetans are spread throughout a wide area in Western China. While the TAR is where this concentration is greatest, ehtre are ethnically Tibetan communities that occur quite far from the TAR borders, but which exist amongst other ethnic communities.
“The expanse of the Tibetan uprising across places characterized by many dialects, religious traditions, and genetic pools is proof that there is a much larger idea of “Tibetan” that unites people across the country”
But these protests are all occurring within ethnically Tibetan communities.
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 24, 2008, 6:47 pm
All said, it is not for the international community to decide what Tibetans should or shouldn’t demand. If they demand total independence, its their right.
It is unfortunate that the Chinese have fetishes and wet dreams about every one of them “accepting China as their overlord”, toeing CCP’s propaganda and somehow become proud of being called a “chinese”. Which are all unfortunate. People should be proud of what they have made out of themselves in this life and not because they are Chinese or Tibetans. It is hopeless to see to what extent people can fall for this “pride” for them in the eyes of others.
Free Tibet !!
Comment from Meow
Time: March 25, 2008, 6:53 am
“All said, it is not for the international community to decide what Tibetans should or shouldn’t demand.”
I agree to an extent, but when the Tibetan Government in Exile decided to internationalize the Tibet issue it also (maybe unknowingly) decided to accept the fact that those governments it wants to get assistance from would be putting in their two cents as to how the TGE should proceed. This internationalization of the issue is a big sore spot for China, much like some Americans see the UN as a body that wants to limit American sovereignty. It comes with the territory.
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 25, 2008, 7:53 am
+++ They are slaughtered like dogs in their own homeland and they are being violently colonized against their will. +++
You think of Iraq this way and we think of Tibet this way. And Americans are protesting sending troops to Iraq.
+++ Its fashionable today to have separation of state and religion in government. But if you guys rule independently, religion will be the state right? +++
Wrong. Because they have already decided on having democracy and separate state from religion.
Comment from Tian
Time: March 26, 2008, 6:35 am
Gubbi, grow up kid. You like other American kids on here won’t understand it till you are much older. But even then, I wonder if you will be mature enough to understand everything. No offense intended, I’m only telling you the truth.
And I think the world will never understand China or its government either because they are so incredibly paranoid and brainwashed. They will never understand the selflessness of the 40s generation of Chinese people. Who, judging from hindsight, acted in a way that defied all known economical principles and rational behavior to lay the foundation for China’s explosive growth today.
No, you people will never understand because you live in a democratic country driven by petty self interest. Because of your pettiness, what I say will sound like propaganda. Oh well…you will never understand. Those who refuse to be enlightened will never be enlightened. It is a shame that some of you read my comments as a source of amusement.
If anyone is interested to know, I am currently doing research in macroeconomics focusing on formulating an explanation for the explosive economical growth in China. I’m looking at it from a historical perspective using the Solow Model.
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 27, 2008, 12:40 am
Gubbi, grow up kid. You like other American kids ….
First I’m not an American and second I’m not a kid and I don’t even live in US. So if you think you are mature enough to judge me the way you did, you couldn’t be more wrong. You don’t have to repeatedly point out explicitly that you are rational and unbiased. Let your words reflect it. And instead of the general preachings to grow up and become mature, I would appreciate if you can reply to any of the points specifically.
They will never understand the selflessness of the 40s generation of Chinese people.
If you are a rational being, you should understand that most of the corruption and problems we have to live with today have their seeds in this so-called “era of selflessness” which has been seen as golden era in numerous countries. When people step out of their way to decide what is good for others and how others should behave and live in order to match their views of “ideal societies”, instead of “showing by example” and minding their own business, problem ensues.
No, you people will never understand because you live in a democratic country driven by petty self interest.
Good luck with your research. Tell the world if you find the cause for China’s rapid growth to be based on throwing away self interest.
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 27, 2008, 12:56 am
it also (maybe unknowingly) decided to accept the fact that those governments it wants to get assistance from would be putting in their two cents as to how the TGE should proceed…. It comes with the territory.
Yeah. I agree. And they’ll have to take these suggestions into account. I “wish” nations do not try to grab it as an opportunity and use Tibet as a means to use something against china in future, and instead look at it just as an issue in itself that needs a solution both parties will feel good about. But that looks inevitable.
Comment from suichfy mlivnewt
Time: March 28, 2008, 6:11 am
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Comment from Meow
Time: March 29, 2008, 2:12 pm
“No. because it is still about freedom (and not independence). Freedom to practice their religion and preserve their culture.”
But therein lies the problem. When Lhadon says, “Free Tibet” she means independent (i.e. “The issue is independence”) and while you may disagree with that and use “free” in the sense that Tibet should have freedom IN China and not FROM China, there is an obscurity created there that the CCP actually uses to its own advantage. The CCP says, “Tibet is a part of China, we won’t talk till you accept that.” DL replies, “Ok, meaningful autonomy then?”. Tibetan protestors shout, “FREE TIBET!”. China says, “Oh, gee, I thought you said you didn’t want independence? Too bad, guess you lied huh, seeya later.”
I get the difference, and maybe the Chinese do too, but they can use it as a way to excuse themselves from not acknowledging that the DL is probably the most moderate voice they’ll deal with for some time to come. Chances are if there is a successor to the DL, or if he steps down, the next leader may be more hardline.
I wonder how the Chinese gov’t would deal with a few tens of thousands of Tibetans shouting “Free China!!!” instead of just “Free Tibet”. I can imagine the reluctance to acknowledge the personal freedom that the rest of China does not enjoy makes for a bit of a sore spot. In other words, If the issue is freedom, what does independence have anything to do with it? How can the ordinary Chinese citizen feel compelled to support Tibetan independence? The Free Tibet movement might find many more allies (ones that would actually be able to DO something) if you joined the chorus of Chinese voices advocating more freedom.
“The hatred towards Hans is not based on notions of superiority.”
I don’t really know what that has to do with anything. Whether a Tibetan hates a Han because he thinks he is superior or because he sees him as an outsider in his land makes no difference. It’s still what American would refer to as racism (though it’s technically more like ethnocentrism, but that just doesn’t have the oomph of the term “racism”).
Also, the repression of monks and nuns may seem like a religious issue on its face, and the fact that the DL’s picture is at the very least a quick way to raise a great deal of suspicion about yourself, or at most a good way to land yourself in jail (depending on what the rules of the day dictate, as they seem to change a lot) the monasteries undergo such suspicion for the exact reason that Tian said. The CCP does not care about monks as monks, they care about monks as agents of separatism. Even the elderly monks in these institutions try to dissuade them from being overtly political, because they know it merely brings down the watchful eye (and perhaps hand) of the CCP. Yes, there was religious persecution during the Cultural Revolution, some say largely by Tibetans themselves on other Tibetans (I won’t take a side on that one, as it doesn’t much matter now), but the limitations on Tibetan religion today is completely politically based, and in Tibet politics and religion have been linked by the hip for some thousands of years.
Comment from Gubbi
Time: March 30, 2008, 3:06 am
The Free Tibet movement might find many more allies (ones that would actually be able to DO something) if you joined the chorus of Chinese voices advocating more freedom.
I agree and that might actually lead to practical solutions. But I wont support China’s arrogant stand that all ethnicities should look up to China as “their overlord”. Why should they be part of China anyway? Why should China’s problems become their problems? Why should they consider themselves as Chinese? Any reason other than China rules them now?
I don’t really know what that has to do with anything. Whether a Tibetan hates a Han because he thinks he is superior or because he sees him as an outsider in his land makes no difference.
It does make a difference. One is political while the other is racial. One of the major gripes of Tibetans is economic depravity. The migrant Chinese are more affluent and Tibetans are reduced to third grade citizens in their own land. The economic reforms haven’t improved them much.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/china/democracy_power/tibet_revolt
the monasteries undergo such suspicion for the exact reason that Tian said
But having Dalai Lama’s photos is no punishable crime. That is a non-violent way of expressing their opinion, which CCP can’t stand. It violates fundamental right to speech and expression. While you agree CCPs policies regarding freedom is flawed I don’t think there should be an acceptance of such suspicion and denial of basic rights from your end.
and in Tibet politics and religion have been linked by the hip for some thousands of years.
This fact shouldn’t stop them changing their futures.
Comment from Meow
Time: March 31, 2008, 10:41 am
“While you agree CCPs policies regarding freedom is flawed I don’t think there should be an acceptance of such suspicion and denial of basic rights from your end.”
I wouldn’t call it acceptance so much as I’d call it understanding. Given the system these monks operate in I understand why they catch flak for having pictures of the DL. I don’t agree with it, and I think it is completely unnecessary, and only makes things worse for the CCP, but my point was that the banning of photos is not religiously motivated, but political, and that’s where my point ends. Beyond that I agree with you.
Regarding racial vs. economic hatred, as many Americans are familiar with (and certainly other peoples around the world) economic hatred often manifests itself as racial hatred when the migrants are of a differing ethnic makeup. Many Americans have some ugly illogical racial attitudes regarding Mexican migrants that stem from logical economic grievances.
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