Beijing Wide Open

Comment from matapita
Time: April 4, 2008, 11:20 am

Please > How in the world can any conscious young athlete participate in the Olympics in Beijing, given the situation in Tibet? Just don’t go.

Comment from Tenzin
Time: April 4, 2008, 2:01 pm

Before I go on, I should mention that Tibet was on the front cover of the NYT for 2 days, and there was almost daily coverage under the International Reports section of the paper. I have no idea about the Washington Post or the Wall Street Journal etc. The BBC did constant reporting on the protests and on NPR, I have heard three programs on the protests so far. Local new coverage was almost non-existent.

Going back to your post, I heard the same thing on BBC radio or on NPR; the mayor of San Francisco said that the Tibetans and their supporters should stop from protesting the Olympic torch from passing through San Francisco because the torch represents the spirit of the games and that it should not be politicized. What he was saying is obviously true, i.e. from his own standpoint. The torch is not a symbol of Chinese human rights abuses. The reason why we are protesting the torch relay is because this is our chance to raise our voices against China. Another thing that might be useful to keep in mind is, the people who are not happy we are protesting the torch relay may be people who are unsympathetic toward Tibetans. It really comes down to the interests of the Tibetans and our supporters against the interests of those who don’t want a lot of opposition of the torch relay, what ever their reasons may be.

The only reason we are protesting against the torch relay is because it is connected to the Beijing Olympics this year. The torch may represent the spirit of competition and sports, but this year it also represents the Beijing Olympics, and we are against that. The Dalai Lama is pressing for Dialogue and genuine autonomy in Tibet, eventhough China remains our true master. In that case, the torch going through Tibet mignt not be that objectionable because we would be still a part of China. But what is happening in Tibet is cultural genocide and gross human rights viloations (I am not saying this just for the sake of saying) and that is certainly why they should be made accountable for. We don’t support the torch rally because the Tibetans are against the cultural genocide, gross human rights viloations and the recent viloent crack downs of protestors in Tibet which have killed ___Tibetans in Tibet. It is time for the world to heed and not ignore the plight of the Tibetan people. It is time for the world to support the Tibetans in protesting the torch rally passing through Tibet.

Also: The back and forth regarding whether Tibet was really a sovereign country before the Chinese invaded is another thing that has been going on between Tibet and China from the very beginning. There is absolutely no doubt that Tibet was a nation on its own. We have a long history and a lineage of kings and Dalai lamas to prove the point.
It is actually really interesting to know what it really means to be a nation. I did a Google search for new countries and since 1990, 33 new countries have been created. Most of those new countries are in the former USSR but the most recent country to birth is Kosovo, Feb 17, 2008. Just like that, we have another new country. So, the idea that Tibet can be a new country is not too far fetched. Look at what happed to India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. What I am getting at is, the idea of an independent Tibet is not at all that inconceivable. Well, China is the only problem and a big one at that. The true nature of relation between Tibet and China is one that of imperialism.

Comment from Rich
Time: April 4, 2008, 2:52 pm

Lhadon, you continue to be such a sincere and irrefutable voice for Tibet. Western analysts, reporters, scholars, and ordinary people who refuse to “get it” and talk about stupid, irrelevant things like “politicizing the games” or “how Chinese feel” or their own ignorant ideas of what would constitute a “solution” for Tibet are all just as guilty as China. I am ashamed of my people and how much the Chinese values of “stability” and faux “harmony” have rubbed off onto them, refusing to acknowledge that China, AS A NATION, is a criminal, plain and simple. If China must fall apart, if we must pay the price of world economic crisis, that is our just punishment for decades of collaboration with a criminal nation. Shame on all of our leaders who keep looking for an “easy out” for China! Shame on America, on Europe, on India, on Nepal, on the United Nations, and on the whole world!

In the words of my city’s overly-beloved hero Thomas Jefferson, “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

Comment from Sonam
Time: April 4, 2008, 4:32 pm

Hi Lhadon

I am going to post this on my facebook page. I remember you and our thoughts are with you and the Tibetan people at this very difficult time. I have been attending the protests here in NY and am doing everything I can to support your cause. If there is anyway we can do more please let us know

Sonam Ongmo

Comment from Thoesam
Time: April 4, 2008, 7:16 pm

I think the most obvious reason why we protest this torch relay in Tibet is because Tibet is ours and China’s torch needs our permisson to enter.And we do no want the torch of injustice that the communist regime is to enter our sacred land.

Comment from Diane
Time: April 4, 2008, 7:40 pm

Lhadon,

It must be extremely hard relaying over and over again something that seems so very obvious, but you must continue.

I can only keep thinking of all the people who fell hook, line and sinker for the idea of sports and games in 1936 as Hilter was working on a much bigger plan than just hosting the Olympic Games.

He too used the games and the county of Germany to reinforce his propaganda campaign. And the world including the US just sat by cheering them on.

We have seen the outcome of that horrible situation and I can’t believe we would ever let that happen again. Especially because the world has already known the brutality of China on both the Tibetans and its own people.

What else do we have to see in order to wake up the world to this brutal regime? How much money is enough? How many life’s have to be sacrificed?

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

Lhadon, the soul of every Tibetan that has made the ultimate sacrifice of the most precious thing they had, their life, is with you now, leading you on.
Know that.
xoxox
Diane

Comment from Fred Wong
Time: April 4, 2008, 9:46 pm

Tenzin, just want to comment on your point on so many new countries were created in last two decades. Each of them has its own special situation. For example, for the former parts of USSR, they were let go because Moscow imploded. For another example, Kosovo got indepence due to strong support from NATO and USA.

On the other hand, tremendous difficulty with seperatist movements in many other countries, e.g. Canada (Quebec), Spain, Siri Lanka, Phillipinne, Taiwan, Nothern Irland.

I believe, for the quick benefit to the Tibetan people, the Middle Way advocated by his holiness Dalai Lama is the first choice… easiest and bloodless. Just hold the Beijing government to their desire/promise of “harmonious society” of “56 ethnic flowers”. At least try it first, if that does not work and greivences are still great, then the second choice (indepence throught blood) can be taken later anytime… there is no time limitation on that option anyway. Just my view.

Comment from Luis
Time: April 5, 2008, 2:42 am

Welcome to London !

I hope, whatever happens to the flame, that London is still a free city where people can freely protest and speak their minds on this subject.

I am sure the protestors will open the eyes of many Londoners to what is going on in Tibet. My hope is that London as a free and generally fair City with an international perspective will help shine a light on Chinese Government activities that they would prefer were not exposed.

Comment from S. Cai
Time: April 5, 2008, 7:39 am

Rich, when almost everyone else looks like idiot to you, what’s the most likely explanation?

Comment from Rich
Time: April 5, 2008, 2:03 pm

Fred, the dichotomy between independence and nonviolence is a false one, and does a horrible disservice to the people fighting nonviolently for Tibet’s independence. Most successful independence movements have some degree of violence somewhere along the way,

“Striving for” the “Middle Way” is a logical impossibility. If it’s what you’re striving for, then it’s not in the middle, it’s the extreme. This problem is evidenced practically in all of the failed attempts at negotiation: in each round, the demand moves to the midway point between the last round’s “pro-Tibet” extreme and the Chinese status quo. When I was in Tibet last summer, what struck me was that the super-watered-down version of the “Middle Way” being advocated then was hardly demanding anything that Tibetans didn’t already have. And as we can see quite plainly now, what Tibetans already had was NOT making people satisfied.

Negotiation works by having leverage, something to bargain with. Throwing away your demands before you get to the table, or before you have any position of strength, is absolutely doomed to failure. This is just basic common sense.

There will be no “quick benefit” solution for Tibet. The road to independence will be long and hard, but it’s the only road, because China will not entertain anything else. After spending much time with Tibetans and in Tibet, I have no doubt in my mind that Tibetans are a strong people who can survive whatever China throws at them, who can weather the oppression until China falls apart. If I can make that day come even one day sooner, it will be my greatest honor and pleasure.

Comment from Tenzin
Time: April 6, 2008, 6:11 pm

Lhadon, you’re doing your best and we all know that. Just leave the rest to the people to understand. You’re our hero, you’re my hero. I’m so proud of being a Tibetan right now because of the heroes inside Tibet who are risking their lives even at gunpoint and the likes of you and Tendor. Go Lhadon.. we’re with you.

Love and Prayers..

Comment from David
Time: April 7, 2008, 12:32 pm

Since the riot in Tibet in March, I paid some attention to the issue of Tibet. I read some books, academic publications, and surely a lot of left and right opinions on the websites, to search for a soberly balanced view with verifiable qualitative and quantitative evidence.

Now I guess I have my own opinion:

1. Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years. Now it is still part of China, which is recognized by the International community. Almost every country in the world supports China’s sovereignty over Tibet. There is no such issue as Tibet Independence.

2. There are some human right issues in Tibet, and it will continue there. However, from a large picture perspective, the majority of the Tibetans are enjoying a better life than when ruled by Dalai Lama before 1959. Also, the human rights enjoyed by the majority of Tibetans are improving, especially after Deng’s reform starting in 1980s, although the level of human rights there is not comparable that in the western countries. In this sense, I have to admit that Tibet is improving.

3. The human right situations in Tibetan are exaggerated by those pro-Tibet organizations, especially by the Tibet government in exile by Dalai Lama, for political and funding purpose. The propaganda machine by Dalai Lama is very successful, since so many of my western fellows are convinced. But I believe with more and more people go to Tibet, a correct and fact-based view about Tibet will be established in the near future.

This is my personal opinion, just based on my know knowledge about the history of Tibet and on my own independent thinking. I don’t expect everyone to buy this opinion. You can have your own. But what I emphasize is that your opinion should NOT be a direct result of propaganda machines, and that you should use your own brain to see and think about the world, and that based on your opinion on collective, verifiable, quantitative evidence.

So I definitely will not support those behaviors to destroy the Olympic torch in London and Paris. Olympic spirit is sacred, and should not be polluted by some groups with hidden untellable political motivations. Also, I really recommend those activists to calm down and go back to the library to read a few more books and academic papers on Tibet. Don’t get used by someone else.

At last, I met across a wonderful debate on a forum on the Internet when I searched for the materials about the history of Tibet. It was a long debate and lasted for a couple of months. Also, this debate occurred before the riot in Tibet. That is one reason why I think the debate is worth reading. Here is the link:
https://beijingwideopen.org/2008/04/04/165/#comments

Comment from David
Time: April 7, 2008, 12:37 pm

Sorry for the wrong link at the bottom of my post. The correct link is:

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073

Comment from Vajra Siddhartha
Time: April 8, 2008, 12:00 pm

Amazing, as always !

YOU and all of us have to be the voice for the Tibetans in Tibet whose voices are suppressed by the brutal Chinese regime.

China should have learned by now that power does not come from the barrels of guns. They wanted to advertise their economic growth by hosting the Olympics and by holding the International Torch Relay but their advertisements misfired.

In Greece, In London and in Paris we made China think about their inhumane Tibet policy. We will do the same in San Francisco.

FREE TIBET !!

Comment from ZhouXiu
Time: April 8, 2008, 5:11 pm

I have been trying to find the truth and here to write some fact, as fair as I can, down. I have to say thank you to London as well. For giving me as a Chinese girl more views and understandings.

This includes both sides. One is what happened there in Tibet, I believe at least PART of what I saw and heard is true and I am very SORRY for the harm and disaster happened to the Tibetan, I am so sorry personally that when I was there on the plateau, seeing them smiled at me giving me hada, then simply thought they are ALL happy. And I never got a chance to see you guys born in exile. Thus I hope to see a dialogue between our government and Dalai Lama.( there is a ‘but’ which could be partly explained by the secend part below)
Another one I also got is a much clear idea of some ppl’s opinions toward us here, especially after the media’s partly slander for many years, like one blamed our whole NATION so easily on his comment and i also see fears, worries about China’s rising from BBC,CNN,Sky news etc.
——————————–
HISTORY, searchable on wikipedia:
Tibet has been a part of China since Yuan Dynasty, 1271 – 1368, ‘Tibet was ruled by the Yuan Dynasty through the Commission for Buddhist and Tibetian affairs (Xuanzhengyuan 宣政院)’ after that, Ming Dynast lost the control of it,1368-1644, and after that Qing Dynasty, 1644 – 1912,ruled it from 1751 as ‘Tibet (Xizang 西藏; province since 1751) and Eastern or Chinese Turkestan (Xinjiang 新疆; province since 1884) and Qinghai 青海 (province since 1907) were loosely administered by Grand Ministers (Zhu Zang dachen 駐藏大臣) resp. a commander-general (zongtong 總統) for Turkestan and different commanders-in-chief (Sino-Mongolian: zhasake 札薩克) for Qinghai. ‘
After that was WW1,2 when republic of China never claimed Tibet to be independent country but ‘Tibet remained a defacto independent state until shortly after the conclusion of the Chinese civil war, when on October 1, 1949, the People’s Republic of China was formally proclaimed in Beijing.’

————-
I think Chinese Government doesnt want to talk partly because Dalai had a very long history with America, the things with CIA, but I will never know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso%2C_14th_Dalai_Lama

Tibetan independence movement

The Dalai Lama accepted the 1951 Seventeen Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet with the People’s Republic of China. However, his brothers moved to Kalimpong in India and, with the help of the Indian and American governments, organized pro-independence literature and the smuggling of weapons into Tibet. Armed struggles broke out in Amdo and Kham in 1956 and later spread to Central Tibet. The movement was a failure and was forced to retreat to Nepal or go underground. Following normalisation of relations between the United States and the People’s Republic of China, American support was cut off in the early 1970s. The Dalai Lama then began to formulate his policy towards a peaceful solution in which a democratic autonomous Tibet would be established[citation needed].
In October 1998, the Dalai Lama’s administration acknowledged that it received US$1.7 million a year in the 1960s from the U.S. Government through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and had also trained a guerilla army in Colorado, (USA). [24][25]
The Dalai Lama has on occasion been denounced by the Chinese government as a supporter of Tibetan independence. Over time, he has developed a public position stating that he is not in favour of Tibetan independence[26] and would not object to a status in which Tibet has internal autonomy while the PRC manages some aspects of Tibet’s defence and foreign affairs.[27] In his ‘Middle Way Approach’, he laid down that the Chinese government can take care of foreign affairs and defence, and that Tibet should be managed by an elected body.[28]

Comment from No Where
Time: April 9, 2008, 1:00 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGgYslpM8y4

Comment from zhouxiu
Time: April 9, 2008, 3:41 am

As I saw here.
I put only FACT as much as I can.
From wikipedia, from google uk.

AND MY MESSAGE IS DELETED.

WIKI DALAI LAMA 14TH and TIBET yourself.
dont bother to speak here with a fake ‘tibetan’ face.

Comment from Rich
Time: April 9, 2008, 9:20 pm

zhouxiu, your comment is not deleted but visible for all to see, in all its brilliant irrelevance. We all know about the CIA exploitation and betrayal of the Tibetan resistence fighters. I’m happy for what aid the CIA gave but ashamed that they took advantage of Tibet for their own cold-war purposes, and even more ashamed of what Kissinger and Nixon did.

David, ignorant folks like yourself have no business passing judgement against a people who have been brutalized, colonized, and subjugated. You have obviously never been to Tibet or even had any serious interaction with Tibetan people. I wonder why you take it upon yourself to voice an offensive pro-colonizer opinion. Most of your precious books and “academic” sources on Tibet seem to come from hacks and frauds like Mel Goldstein. Why not read some legitimate scholarly works and histories on Tibet such as Tsering Shakya’s rather than more sick patronizing neo-orientalism from westerners?

I’m really fed up with spoiled college kids in their ivory towers and their snobby scholastic approaches to Tibet. When your friends are being hunted by armed police and possibly killed (and yes I mean my friends in a very literal sense!) for the hope of regaining their country, it’s time for ACTION. Not for playing debate club. Unlike you, Tibetans and people who have worked alongside them for years and years know what needs to be done, and we’ll do it. Step out of the way. Stop putting more bricks in the wall. You are part of the problem.

Comment from Tenzin
Time: April 10, 2008, 2:14 pm

I am sure that everyone can tell that I am a Tibetan. This blog is really excellent. Blogs are great to have discussions and especially it is really great for Tibetans because we can now discuss directly with Chinese people. If you have read any of my other messages, and if you haven’t, I do not consider that the Chinese people are bad inherently. What has really absolutely amazed me is the great amount of interest the Chinese people have taken recently about Tibet. I really hope that this discussion goes on between Tibetans like myself and Chinese like Zhouxiu, Fred, Tian and others on this blog. I appreciate your ernest discussions. I would appreciate if Tibetans took a more active participation in political discourse and educate themselves about political matters concerning Tibet.

David, I appreciate your interest in Tibet. There is a lot of propaganda everywhere, and the US is really no different. What the US says about the world is conveniently skewed towards the interest of the West. For example, Iraq had no real “wepons of mass-destruction,” did they. You are right that life of ordinary Tibetans were not good in the past and that life has greatly improved in Tibet under China. I want you to also remember that the Chinese back then were not having the best times of their lives, under Chaiman Mao. It is true that Tibet is not recognised as an independent nation. That is really for the benefit of the international harmony. History and politics are both very convoluted subjects. Remember that the US did not exist before 1776. It has just been a little over 200 years that the US is recognised as a nation.

Going back to Tibet,Tibet has existed as a ‘nation’ of people for many centuries. The history between China and Tibet is also convoluted, and there have been periods of time when the emperor of China held sway over Tibet. But Tibet was essentially a nation with a different people with a language and culture all our own. A nation by definition has a set of values all its own and the people under a single nation feel they belong to a group of people, and they agree to identify with the country under which they live. Look at history, and nations are born simply because of the different people that live within them. India was split into India, and Pakistan to separate muslims and hindus. Isreal was created for the jews. What I am trying to say is that simply having occupied a country does not give you the right to call a country your own. If that were the case, former colonies of Great Britain, France and Spain would be considered to be under their colonial masters. India is a sovereign nation not a part of Britain anymore, although it can claim that it once controlled it. Tibet is made up of a people that had its own government under the Dalai Lamas for many centuries, with its own language, culture, and religion. China can claim that Tibet was simply a province of China with its own governance, but as far as we are concerned, Tibet was independent.

Zhouxiu, for someone in China, your English is really good. I should point out that wikipedia is not really a good source for history. People keep changing things on wikipedia. I would recommend you read a book instead. But I am not really sure if you can trust any book that you find in China.

Comment from Tian
Time: April 11, 2008, 4:08 pm

Recently I had some time to browse youtube videos of Dalai Lama’s speeches. I have to say, I am touched. Although I know that most of what he preach will not materialize due to political interests, I sincerely hope that it can. It is what our world needs right now. And it is what China needs immediately. Not Islam and definitely not Christianity, but this…this form of Tibetan Buddhism that propagates a message of worldly acceptance, non-violence, and compassion. Essentially, this is the most beautiful quintessence of all religion, this message of unity and harmony among all races of the human family. And it is one of the most beautiful treasures from the ancient world which still remains after the horrible purges during the 1950s-80s. You Tibetans are right. Although Tibetan folk culture survived in China, Tibetan religious culture is dying and eroding.

Now of course, having been trained in economics, I naturally look at the hidden incentives for everything. I know very well that Dalai Lama was and still is funded by the CIA to carry out seditious activities within Tibet. I also believe that Dalai Lama has a hidden agenda as well. But I now see a different aspect in this issue. And it can be best characterized with the Chinese adage, “it is rare to be ignorant”. To all the Chinese viewers here, I say as the common people, lets all be ignorant and foolish for once. Forget about the hidden political agendas and lofty nationalistic ideals. Leave that to the politicians. Carry on our everyday lives as best as we can in a just and fair manner and believe in the goodness of others through this message of compassion, harmony, and unity. Accept it as faith. And I think, this will make us all much happier. Perhaps this is the ultimate message the Dalai Lama is trying to send, and it would be a shame if it was silenced. It would be a disgrace to our history and to our ancestors.

However, I don’t think religion should mix with politics. I give complete support to his holiness the Dalai Lama and Tibetan religion if it stays out of politics.

Also, I really hope the CCP could allow more non-engineers into the ruling oligarchic circle. China needs scholars of the humanities and social sciences who view religion not as impediments to economic growth but as an intrinsic watermark of human evolution which is essential to a healthy, well functioning society.

Comment from ZhouXiu
Time: April 12, 2008, 9:18 pm

Hi TENZIN, it is a great honor for me to see your reply here. It’s a bit strange but I feel very close to you. Because I have never ever consider a Tibetan as an ‘outsider’. I see them as sis and bro, like many Chinese,not only Han in China.We have been educated to respect you, to protect your culture for our whole student life. Anyway you may not like it..ironic hehe.

I will get back to you with a translated article and chinese original written by a tibetan student in China patrol university. It is not representitive, but plz don’t doubt what your sis,true Tibetan sis ,wrote.

Now i need some sleep. sorry.

Comment from ZhouXiu
Time: April 12, 2008, 9:19 pm

p.s. What I searched about the history is not from wikipedia but reachable there.

Comment from Tian
Time: April 13, 2008, 9:00 am

By the way, Rich is a true American terrorist. His beliefs are the exact ones held by the Arab counterparts fighting against America and these beliefs completely substantiates all CCP claims about the Western world’s intent on subverting and splitting China.

Although I usually do not debate with individuals with terrorist inclinations, his posts are too jarring to be ignored. And this is actually becoming amusing. So here we go…

1. It is unfortunate that something happened to his Tibetan friend over there. I don’t know what happened, what the circumstance was and the context. Since he refuses to elaborate and knowing that he is passionate to the point of being a potential terrorist, I will leave it there without any further probing.

But lets drop that for a second and analyze what if Tibet gains independence. Because of its location and current situation, it will suffer economically. The United States will most definitely send a portion of its annual tax revenue to cover this for two purposes. One, to establish a further outpost on the borders of China in order to put in place the Anaconda Plan of the 19th century against China. Two, to send in American corporations in there to “help” the Tibetans in “developing” their economy. But if Obama turns out to be as stupid on trade as Bush, then given this opportunity the American government will still run a net loss. This will translate into a further drain on the U.S. economy, an even lower subsistence level to poor Americans (who will probably be sent to their deaths by the rich Americans in some other war anyway).

What does this all mean? This means that the already battered American public will have to portion out more of their income as taxes. That’s right. Given the fact that the average American earns around $40,000 a year and pays 25% federal tax, a “free” Tibet means at least an annual paycheck of $300-$500 that will ultimately end up in Tibet. Mind you, this is mandatory. Not some “lets spread chaos-called-American-style-democracy-in-Iraq and then run away”. What will this cause? Well poor Americans are already suffering from the Iraq and Afghan wars. They not only have to pay out financially, but also have to give up their sons and daughters. Now that the rich are instigating war in Tibet, which will most DEFINITELY lead to war if pressed further, this will translate into more domestic violence.

Given the fact that U.S. law permits holding firearms, this will mean more shootouts in cities such as Detroit and Los Angeles and perhaps higher racial tensions. So this means that Rich, might one day drive out of his sunny, optimistic suburban home in his Saab to be “popped” by a person that adopts the name of Poor.

So in that case it would be two tragedies instead of one. Largely caused by Rich’s own foolishness.

Comment from Tian
Time: April 13, 2008, 9:12 am

2. On the issue of unbiased sources, although I admit and agree that not all Chinese sources are impartial, I don’t believe that the only “legitimate scholarly works” are ones by Tibetans such as Tsering Shakya. I would be more willing to trust an American scholar/professor on this issue. Because, thank god American academia still hold high standards.

3. Us university students and our “ivory towers”. You see, the reason we debate is because we want to find the best solution to issues by looking at all sides of the issue. This endeavor when conducted objectively creates the best result. If scholars and world leaders go by their passions like you, the uninitiated, then the world will go mad. Imagine, you see some killer brutally torture and murder a man. Passion will tell you to kill that murderer because he was sadistical. But what if I tell you that the murderer was mentally insane and that the man he killed taunted him for years? Then passion will grant you sympathy toward the killer, but because of your previous irrationalism that killer is already executed by the law. Is this the best outcome?

Just because something happened to your Tibetan friend doesn’t mean it is okay for thousands more Han Chinese to die in the case that the country falls apart due to this issue. This is racism, bigotry, arrogance, and ignorance in the extreme. Which is EXACTLY what angers most Chinese youth today. In this argument you are implying that a Tibetan life is more valuable. In that case, you are absolutely instigating war. And every Chinese, both inside and outside the country, will support their country because of the injustice. This means you have 1/6th of the world population against you, which means you have the majority of the world population against you and since the combined population of North America and Europe is not more than 1.3 billion + supporters in Africa, Latin America and the Middle East, it is safe to say that the majority of the world is against the views held by Europeans and Americans. YOU ARE THE MINORITY. AND THE WORLD HATES YOU.

IF CHINA HAS TO FIGHT A WAR AGAINST EUROPEAN CULTURAL IMPERIALISM, I WILL GIVE IT FULL SUPPORT.

Comment from Rich
Time: April 14, 2008, 11:58 am

I’m quite honored to join the circle of people whom Chinese nationalists ridiculously call terrorists. =) And I’m quite happy to see that you’re even considering the possibility of China falling apart over Tibet. There’s a really easy way to avoid that: withdraw from Tibet before it happens.

If China does fall apart and thousands or even millions of Chinese die in the aftermath, it will be China’s fault for 50 years of failed attempts to enforce “harmony” through violence. This is YOUR problem to deal with as Chinese. You can’t guilt-trip Tibetans and their supporters into shutting up for your sake. I will stand by the Tibetan side, unconditionally and absolutely, until independence is won. I hope China can learn to respond responsibly so that it comes with minimal loss of life and minimal suffering.

Comment from ZhouXiu
Time: April 14, 2008, 4:17 pm

So answer my question Rich,
What is the future of Tibet in your eyes?
Plz explain from economics, politics,military,religion,human rights.

I am awaiting for your answer.

Comment from Rich
Time: April 15, 2008, 9:38 pm

It’s not my business or my right to decide on Tibet’s future institutions. This right belongs only to Tibetans.

The Dalai Lama has a proposed future framework for Tibet’s government as a constitutional democracy with moderately socialist economic direction, which was later transitioned (and many would say, watered down) in his offer to negotiate autonomy for Tibet within the Chinese system. Of course it’s up to the people whether to follow this path, to follow his original vision for the government of an independent Tibet, or to seek an entirely new direction. But any government of Tibet, like any government in the world, must respect fundamental human rights and have the consent of the people it governs. At present, China meets neither of these requirements.

Does this answer your question?

Comment from tian
Time: April 18, 2008, 7:17 pm

Rich, you are too funny. I am not telling anyone to shut up. Say whatever you want. This is the internet. We can threaten to copulate with other people’s mothers here and then carry on civilized lives in the real world with no consequences. Whatever, I don’t give a damn what you say. And I think your government thinks like me too. They ALSO don’t give a damn what you say. The reason is because people like you are CRAZY. You are not Tibetan and you sound like as if the CCP murdered your mother. What’s going on? Are you okay?

And if you can’t tell, I am not a fanatical nationalist. If I were, I wouldn’t even post on here because by doing so it is glamorizing this website, making it more popular. And making the false impression that the majority of the Chinese actually want to debate with Tibetan terrorists. Instead, I would assert that 1. You are ignorant and deserves to die for no apparent reason other than the fact that you spoke against ALMIGHTY CHINA. And 2. Tibet is a part of China. If you disagree, again, DIE. There, end of story. I would then probably post some hideous, obscene curse here in one or two very succinct lines to get the message across and then go do something else.

No, I’m wasting my time here because I am an impartial university student who is trying to study the delicate reason behind social/ethnic conflicts through these posts. but unfortunately, so far I haven’t seen many rational, meaningful posts from the separatists’ side.

I lost my temper in the last post because I cannot stand racism or bigotry. I am generally very tolerant of other people’s opinions but this is crossing the line. From my interpretation of what you wrote, I think this is what you are proposing. And I have to say that I am appalled by the fact that you, who profess to support Tibetan buddhism/culture, have no qualms with war, even at the expense of your own country’s overall health. This confused me. Again, I have to ask, are you sure you are sane man?

The Tibetans have no argument for independence in recent years. They did during the past century when the CCP put in place insane policies that messed up the entire country. But they don’t anymore. Incoming competition from Han merchants is not a valid argument for discontent or independence. That’s called bigotry. If they are going to hide from economic competition, then they wouldn’t be able to survive even if they become independent. Today’s world economy is very very competitive.

Again, I want to reiterate, there is no racism against Tibetans or legal advantages for the Han majority in China. That’s pure ignorance. I encourage all concerned Westerners and Tibetan separatists living abroad to look up a Chinese legal code manual to see for themselves. They would find that the truth is quite the opposite. There are actually a lot of advantages for minorities written in the laws.

Interestingly, Tibetan separatists living abroad have no problem with western prejudice, but they do have a problem with fair Han Chinese competition.

ah…..what can you do?

Comment from tian
Time: April 18, 2008, 8:03 pm

Oh and finally, I want add, I absolutely love Tibetans. My best friend in Beijing is Tibetan and I think they are the most wonderful people in the world. Completely honest, kind, and non-violent. And they are so gentle and friendly too. I absolutely adore them.

Honestly, I think most Chinese, when pressed would tell you that they believe the government policies during the latter part of the last century was wrong. It is really unfortunate that this problem happened in Tibet too. But to use this as the sole argument for independence would not be strong enough in my opinion.
This is neglecting the fact that the Chinese government have put in massive resources to help the Tibetans rise out of poverty.

Furthermore, there’s no racism. The reason that the Tibetans living in Tibet are not getting jobs is not because the companies are biased but because the Tibetans are incompetent in trade.

I encourage them to study hard in school. This way, they actually contribute to humanity regardless of whichever nation they support. Please, Han Chinese are not trying to wage war on you. We sincerely hope that you will succeed in life. And in this respect, I DO speak for the Han people.

Study hard in school. And then you can be a responsible member of society with the tools to decide which course is best for you. Don’t just jump on the Western bandwagon of ignorant and unsubstantiated thoughts such as “genocide” and “racism”. By doing so, you are making yourself a pawn in the great political struggle between the Western world and China.

Best wishes to ALL Tibetans. Peace!

Comment from ZhouXiu
Time: April 19, 2008, 2:49 am

30%,I have to say.
1.
“Tibet must have real autonomy. That means deciding defense and foreign affairs and maybe some others, but those themes that Tibetans can work (with) better.”–Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUST17383020080410?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
Again I really doubt any region with this power is not a fully independent country. And I doubt any government being in our gov’s position will agree with this.
2.I personally fully respect people’s religion but theocracy is definitely not good way to gain human rights. I think you have seen videos showing the old ages. And a lot of your ancestors were killed, tortured by theocracy.
3.constitutional democracy as DL claimed, is it Tibet tradition?
3. Your words are so ambitrary about the human rights in Tibet. Again I want to listen to your experience and your friends’ there. To prove your view that China doesnt at all respect the FUNDAMENTAL human rights.

Comment from talknonsense
Time: April 19, 2008, 5:34 am

dear zhouxiu,chek out strasbur proposal….oops..i jst chek yar china daily.com n their misintepreted it…nway try to look out for other source n compare it…it won’t let ya down..free tibet* free china…

*it doesn’t simply imply independence..

Comment from Rich
Time: April 20, 2008, 1:34 pm

tian, everyone knows the Chinese legal code is a joke. What exists on paper and in reality are totally different. All legitimate Chinese scholars acknowledge this and it’s easy to see for oneself either on the ground or through documented case studies.

I love how you contradict your own point on racism: “Furthermore, there’s no racism. The reason that the Tibetans living in Tibet are not getting jobs is not because the companies are biased but because the Tibetans are incompetent in trade.” This is an absolutely racist statement, just like privileged white men in my own country say about blacks while trying to pretend that racism ended with the civil rights movement. If Tibetans are not “competent in trade”, you should look at the core reasons for this:

1. Their entire social system and education was decimated by military invasion and decades of abuse.
2. Beyond elementary school, almost all schooling in Tibet is conducted in Chinese language.
3. Many Tibetans are reluctant or refuse to send their children to schools where they will be taught false versions of history and ideologies which they consider hostile to their civilization.
4. The sorts of trade skills you’re thinking about are all from a Chinese perspective of what’s important and have more to do with enriching China than with meeting Tibetans’ needs.

Genuinely well-meaning Chinese scholars are addressing these issues and working to correct them with the hope of legitimizing China’s rule of Tibet, but you just gloss over the issue with more offensive racist speech. I couldn’t really care less what ethnicity your friends are. If I look hard, I can find a few privileged non-white people here who’ve been brought up to believe there’s no longer such a thing as racism in America, that their own race is generally lazy, etc. But that doesn’t make it true. It just shows how messed up the education system is. And the same is true of Tibet and China.

Anyone non-Chinese who actually spends time in Tibet, with Tibetan people, will realize right away how unjust the social and political environment is and that Tibetans don’t want to be ruled by Chinese. It’s that simple. I’m sorry that you can’t get it, but your failure to understand or accept the reality doesn’t change it. In the end it will be China who loses from failing to understand Tibet.

Comment from ZhouXiu
Time: April 21, 2008, 3:29 pm

The talk-no-sense: thank you very much for not seeing REUTERS in my reply. I watch REUTERS FT BLOOMBURGH BBC everyday.
I will say nothing to a TALKNOSENSE.

————
RICH,
It is so funny that AGAIN u avoid to say ANYTHING about your TIBET life and TIBETAN FRIENDS, where is your story then???
I still believe some thing you are talking about is true. BUT, your words are too absolute. I have connected with several Tibetan students and unfortunately, what you want is not exactly what they want.

Seeing your comment on Tian’s , I more dobt about your ‘experience’ on Tibet. If you knew how Chinese students study, you would understand why anyone(all Chinese: Han, Tibetan, and other 54races) who havent been to school will generally not be competitive enough.

HAVE YOU BEEN TO TIBET THEN? WHAT TIME?WHAT IS YOUR STORY???

Comment from zhouxiu
Time: April 22, 2008, 7:19 am

Rich, for your comment on Tian,
Please find the way we study by clicking the link below.
I started study from 7.30-11.00+ every day for 4years and from time to time btween 8.00-11.00 when i was in univ. except some breaks for meals or short time of walk.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b009wz4r.shtml?order=aztitle%3Aalphabetical&filter=category%3A100005&scope=iplayercategories&start=2&version_pid=b009wz2h

Comment from Akatsuki
Time: April 25, 2008, 8:26 am

Stop whining, Lladon. Do you think you will gain sympathy by whining about the state of the media?

Comment from Tian
Time: April 25, 2008, 9:27 am

Rich, most economics student are harsh and cynical because they are annoyed that the general public do not understand the art of resource allocation/wealth, which is the central essence of modern society that motivates all political actions. I might have been harsh in saying that Tibetans are “lazy, and incompetent in trade”, in the sense that I didn’t put in any meandering humanities fluff to buffer the impact, but at the same time understand that I am telling you the naked truth from an economical perspective.

Without going into the nitty-gritty math equations to substantiate my argument, let me just give you a simple example. Are the hippies in America or in the western world (for all those European readers) a diligent group of people that contribute to society? Do they produce something that enrich the general public? And by enrich I mean something tangible, materialistic. No, they don’t. They leach off of society, consuming the produce of others whenever feasible in the form of social security/welfare benefits and such. The majority of these hippies feel an affiliation with Tibetan religion, and if you look at Tibetan religious teachings carefully, you will realize that their way of thinking is extremely harmful to economic development. Again, to be blunt, it’s a beggar’s mentality.

Ideas of transcendence? And the idea of reincarnation? You know what that does to the common man? That dampens his motivation to self maximize today. He would think it’s pointless. Although I will die in this world, I will be reborn again somewhere else. And if I am a “good” man today, I will move up on the ladder and reincarnate into a rich man. Meanwhile realize that there’s essentially no work done on his part. This way of thinking is atrocious to economic development. If everybody thought like this, there’s NO WAY that community can ever become rich.

According to Adam Smith’s theory of the “invisible hand”, society improves and becomes wealthier if everyone self maximizes and looks out for their own interests. Although I don’t agree with complete laissez faire economic policies, I do agree that this is the heart and soul of economics. In order to be rich, you have to work hard, think rationally, and maximize. The Tibetans are not doing this and that is why they are incompetent in trade. However, I do have to admit after seeing the recent political events that, they are very competent in politics.

Comment from Tian
Time: April 25, 2008, 10:11 am

On the issue of racism, I am not a racist, however, I don’t like to engage in meandering bullshit either. The fact is, the Tibetan population in Tibet are incompetent in trade. If they are competent, then you wouldn’t even see hundreds of Han shops. The Han merchants wouldn’t be able to break into the market. Look at what the Tibetan youths did during the riot this year, they attacked shops and banks owned by Han merchants. This shows incompetence by itself. If they were competent, they would work hard and squeeze out the competition like men. Instead these foolish youth resorted to violence.

In response to your points.

1. “their social and education system was decimated by years of military invasion and abuse.”

In this case, if you mean their old feudal system then yes, it was destroyed. The old lamas who once owned slaves were ousted and now they live overseas in places like the U.S. where they collude with the CIA. So that part is still alive.
I don’t know much about their education system. But I would imagine it to be a religious one, in that case I agree with you. It is probably damaged. But that is because the religious lamas in Tibet don’t believe in separation of state and religion.

2. For this point, I am not entirely sure so I will tell you what I heard and what I saw. For most of the major minorities, their education is done in dual formats; their dialect and the official Han Chinese. At the university level, education is in Chinese. If you think that is unfair and not right, then I suppose you are saying Yale or Harvard should hold lectures on Shakespeare in Spanish?
Latinos ARE a major minority in your country. Don’t be racist!

3. Yes, I agree with you on this. But this is only true for children of the religious elite. Those people hate the CCP anyway because they lost their power. The “other” Tibetans, who you probably didn’t see in your imaginary months long visit to Tibet, have no problem with the regular 9 year compulsory education stipulated by Chinese law. If they did, you wouldn’t see Tibetan students in Peking University or Tsinghua. Students in China have to study VERY VERY HARD in order to get into those universities. If what you say is true, then Tibetan students wouldn’t have the motivation to get there.

4. The education I’m talking about is the standard in all countries; math, physics, chemistry, biology, foreign language, arts, humanities. For foreign language the major minority groups study Chinese rather than English.

Comment from Tian
Time: April 25, 2008, 10:13 am

Rich, if you think this education is “intended to enrich China and harm the Tibetans”, then I wonder if you ever went to school. Seriously Rich, did you? I am really starting to doubt now because after reading your comments I am beginning to think that you are a dropout on weed all the time.

Don’t think that the majority of the Tibetans in Tibet aspire to the old Tibet as portrayed in the movie “Seven Years in Tibet” with Brad Pitt. THAT’S WHAT IMPERIALISTIC WESTERNERS WANT. To recreate that romantic British colonial world where the galant western gentlemen wooes his darling virtuous madame by taking a fancy in the strange backward locals of the occupied territory. The exiled religious elites living abroad are FEEDING you westerners this false belief so that they can use your resources to get their power back. Don’t be fooled!!

Finally, as for the Chinese legal code, Rich, YOU CAN’T EVEN READ CHINESE. How the flyin fuck can you say that it is a joke? Haha…seriously! After reading your comments I see that you are just like any other small village American hopelessly ignorant of the rest of the world. You don’t know anything about China and yet you are willing to believe that its legal code is a joke? Come on! Lol.

Comment from Rich
Time: April 29, 2008, 4:29 pm

Tian, please cut the childish ad hominem attacks and stop behaving like a colonizer. I don’t know where your “quotation” (supposedly from me) about schools came from. If you’ll look back to the only things I said remotely related to that, I was citing common Tibetan attitudes about sending their children off to Chinese schools. This has nothing to do with my evaluation of the school system, which would be utterly irrelevant since I am not the one affected by it; it’s purely a matter of reporting on a common view among Tibetans. It’s not my job to decide what’s right for other people, nor is it yours, and that’s exactly why we have a problem here.

You’re quite right that I don’t read Chinese and don’t know extremely much about China (though, having been there a few days, I do know at least a little more than the average American). But unlike you I’ve been to Tibet, spent nearly a decade among Tibetan people, and take the time to listen to what they say. And the matter at hand is Tibet, not China, so knowledge of and respect for Tibet is the only thing that’s relevant. Of course I can’t read Chinese law, but I can read the numerous claims that pro-Chinese folks like yourself make about it and know immediately that the law is NOT applied as you describe in Tibet. This knowledge comes from numerous primary sources and firsthand experience with it.

Your claims about a minority “religious elite” are utter nonsense. The views I have described come from direct interaction with Tibetans across all parts of society and all economic and social backgrounds. To anyone who takes the time to bother with this, it’s immediately apparent that the vast majority are religiously devoted and committed to a national identity as “Tibetan”. To put this quantitatively, out of over 400 individuals I conversed with across Tibet, not a single one complained about or expressed any belief in a hostile “religious elite”, nor did anyone express gratitude that Chinese had “liberated” Tibet or brought “progress” or “development” — all of which would have been perfectly safe and risk-free things to say. On the other hand, a large number of those I spoke with expressed devotion to the Dalai Lama, anger over Chinese population transfer and resource exploitation, frustration with lack of job prospects for Tibetans and the imposition of the Chinese language, desire to destroy colonial infrastructure, wishes to work peacefully to promote and strengthen Tibetan language and national identity, and so forth — all dangerous topics of varying severity.

Comment from Tian
Time: May 3, 2008, 10:04 am

Thank you Rich for what you posted. You are right, I did lose my temper and unjustly slandered you. Please forgive me.

What you wrote is what I have been after since the very beginning when I got on this site. Can you tell me more about what you saw over there? I have been to Tibet for a summer vacation (yes, one of the many who got there by the train) and my experience there was limited compared to yours. Obviously, like you said the Tibetan separatists would not talk to me as unreservedly as to you, since you represent the side that is supporting their cause just by your looks (I’m guessing you are white).

You said that what I said is completely different from what is happening over there. Namely, the laws stipulated by the government on paper is not carried out as ordered in reality. Can you elaborate on this? I’m really interested to know because knowing that all governments lie, including my own, as an individual I want to know what is really happening. Thanks again.

Comment from Tian
Time: May 3, 2008, 2:11 pm

But just out of curiousity, can you elaborate on what you were doing there for ten years? If what you say is true, you were there sometime before or during the nineties. And according to my knowledge, during those days there was little contact between coastal China and Tibet. Most of the Hans there were government officials. Not even regular Chinese citizens could travel to Tibet not to say foreigners. As an American what were you doing there if you don’t mind sharing?

If what you say is true there’s quite possibly only two explanations. Either you were part of some tourist company that catered to rich foreigners, or you were employed by the CIA. Ten years is a lot of time and not even the craziest of western hippies are able to stay there for that long. I don’t think you are one of those English teachers or Christian missionaries either. The former doesn’t make sense, since you are against colonization, the latter is simply wrong. And you cannot be a journalist either because there weren’t enough demand from western readers on Tibet.

So logically, I am thinking you fall in one of those two categories. And I am leaning toward the CIA connection because you said you had extensive interactions with Tibetans from all corners of Tibetan society. In the most probably case, you were part of some human rights organization that was indirectly founded by the CIA assuming your statement of Chinese cultural and linguistic illiteracy correct. If this is the case, I think our dialogue should come to an end.

Comment from Rich Felker
Time: May 4, 2008, 10:15 pm

Tian, what you need to realize is that it’s nearly impossible to find a Tibetan who is not a “separatist”. I did not go around Tibet looking for “the Dalai clique” or “relgious elite” or anything like that. Yes I visited many religious sites but I spent a good deal more time in restaurants and bars, stores, workshops of fine crafts, poor rural villages, and even staying with the elite within the Chinese system on several occasions. One man I met kept a portrait of Mao on his wall and had formerly been a soldier. I was rather unsure what to think until one day he showed me a Chinese mining operation and told me “Those are Red Chinese. Very very bad!”

Most of the documentation of law not being carried out as it’s written on paper comes from sources you probably will not accept as valid, so I won’t bother with them unless you specifically ask. What I will cite are examples I observed of ongoing anti-Tibetan practices. One of the most flagrant rights violations that took place during my stay in Tibet was one of my friends being detained and intensely questioned all day just for having spent lots of time around me, a foreigner. He had not engaged in any political acts (in fact he was working tirelessly to establish a good school for local kids) but was being treated unfairly simply on the basis that he had previously lived outside Tibet for a while. This is the kind of abuse that people trying to do good things for Tibet have to put up with all the time and the source of Tibetans’ universal resentment of China.

Another abuse I have witnessed taking place from outside is the arbitrary shutdown of most of the popular Tibetan-language websites, despite the fact that they engaged in heavy self-censorship to avoid making political trouble. This is characteristic of the type of unequal treatment we hear reports of all the time coming out of Tibet, with Tibetans being sentenced to long prison terms for writing relatively mild books or essays which would only result in a “slap on the wrist” if a Chinese person in Beijing did something comparable.

Back to what I saw in Tibet - the linguistic imperialism was one extremely offensive thing that was publicly visible everywhere. Signs, if they had Tibetan at all, had it unreadably small below the huge Chinese writing. Many road signs lacked Tibetan altogether, even when they provided English (I don’t mean just Pinyin) and other foreign languages!! In banks and mobile phone offices, it was extremely difficult to get help in Tibetan; Lhasa was the one place where most such offices had at least one “token minority” working there. Moreover, most of the mobile phone recharge cards and international calling cards I used provided directions in Chinese only, and with extremely confusing and convoluted menus which even some Tibetans with basic to moderate Chinese language knowledge could not seem to follow.

Another example of this that comes to mind is the AIDS awareness posters I saw around Lhasa, which were written only in Chinese. The message was quite clear: the authorities couldn’t care less if Tibetans, the majority of whom cannot read Chinese, get AIDS. It only matters to them if Chinese get AIDS.

I’m going to take a wild guess that you will say many of these things are not oppression, that Tibetans are “backwards” and “uneducated” in the “superior language” and that it’s “their own fault” that they don’t use Chinese as their language. These sorts of attitudes should have died with colonialism at the end of the 19th century. The sad reality is that just as the world began to realize how wrong imperialism and colonialism were (I say began because the process is far from over!), and just as China was condemning Western imperialism, it began to engage in these same antiquated (and if I may say it, “backwards”!) practices itself.

When you have spent 50 years destroying a people’s civilization, holding them in fear, crushing their legitimate aspirations, dragging them through famine and illiteracy, accusing them of being backward, imposing your values on them, killing their breathren, and constantly humiliating them, you CANNOT then just stop a few (or even all) of these crimes and then claim that Tibetans nowadays have “a level playing field” and that domination of Tibet’s economy and resources by Chinese is “Tibetans’ own fault”. Nor do Tibetans expect you to give them subsidies or handouts to “make up for” their “deficiency” as you view it. What they aspire to and deserve is the right to determine their own future and succeed or fail on their own merits in their own system of their own devices. What that system will be is not for you or I to say, but for them. Our job is to acknowledge and stand up for their right to demand it and fight for it.

Comment from Tian
Time: May 5, 2008, 6:39 pm

Ah….I’m so glad that finally we see real conversation from the other side. THANK YOU Mr. Felker for being so candid. This has helped me realize what the problem is. Thank you again for showing me what the real situation is rather than fueling ignorant exaggerations such as “genocide” and “racial cleansing” which are blatant lies that are so offensive that it is causing a rising hatred among Hans toward Tibetans that wasn’t there before.

No, I’m not going to say that the Tibetans are backward or the official Han language is superior. That’s racist and wrong, and I’m 100% against that just like most Chinese youths would. I believe that you are telling the truth. And I would believe all that you posted because I am Chinese and I am very aware of what is happening in my country. What you said falls completely within what I suspected. Let me tell you why those acts of “oppression” are happening. And I hope the Tibetans here would read this as well because this whole thing is just a huge misunderstanding.

First, what you said sounds like what most Chinese would have expected until quite recently. Namely, the strict government censorship and the ban on interactions with foreigners. Yes, those things did happen. But this unfair and ridiculous government regulation didn’t discriminate in that it was imposed on the Han Chinese as well. Until the early 90s, not even regular Han Chinese were allowed to approach foreigners openly. The CCP copied from the Soviets in adopting a policy of shepherding foreigners through propaganda villages in order for them to get a positive picture. Any Han Chinese that dared to approach foreigners openly, even in the capital Beijing, were subject to questioning by the authorities until about twenty years ago. During the 60s-70s, any Han that were suspected to have relatives living abroad (even Hong Kong or Taiwan) were subject to intensive questioning and would have been skipped over for promotions and other benefits. This is to say that they had relatives abroad, if they were outside mainland China themselves, they would have suffered not only harassment but possible lynching during the cultural revolution. My grandfather was humiliated and beaten by brainwashed thugs and demoted to a public bathroom cleaner from his post of nuclear research scientist during the turbulent years because one of his jealous coworkers spread a rumor that he had a step-aunt living in Hong Kong. My grandfather was fiercely loyal to the CCP up to the point when the party screwed him over.

Comment from Tian
Time: May 5, 2008, 7:03 pm

Now, about the signs and other linguistic cultural “oppression” that you mentioned, I have to clarify the original intent. And I truly hope that the Tibetans here would listen because I’m being as candid as I possibly can on this issue.

THE STATE IS NOT RACIST, NOR DOES IT VIEW YOU PEOPLE AS COLONIAL SUBJECTS. IF THEY DID, THEY WOULDN’T BUILD UP YOUR REGION.

No, you have to understand, the country that you people call China is actually a confederation of many many different cultures each with their own different way of life and language. China is kind of like India in that each region spoke their own dialect and at one point probably had their own writing system as well. Just before the communist unification of the country, very few people were literate and the dialect in each region were so different that a person from the North would be a complete foreigner in the south with no idea of what’s going on. This is similar to say, an European or American going to China for the first time. To this day, as a Beijingner, I would still feel uncomfortable going to the south because of the cultural and linguistic differences there. And those people living there are also Han Chinese. When I first came to the United States, I couldn’t fit in with the Chinese community here either. Most of them were from the south, and their culture was COMPLETELY different from the one I grew up with.

After the unification and banishment of western imperialists, the communist leaders sat down and realized that they must organize a standard education system for the whole country, otherwise the country will fall apart again due to its cultural differences and there will be more bloodshed from the civil war. Consequently, the top scholars from the country gathered and revised the ancient Han Chinese writing system and imposed it on everyone within the country. This didn’t go well at first. Many different groups, not only the Tibetans, opposed this new system saying that it was cultural discrimination, imperialism…what have you, and championed their own dialect. The enforcers of the party were very strict with zero tolerance for dissent. Most of them were soldiers who followed a militaristic approach to solving complex social problems, government regulations from above were orders, not suggestions. Many of them were peasants who fought in the civil war, and they were battle hardened and very crude. At times, out of frustration they might have beaten or cursed at the locals for not following the orders. From this came the argument for oppression, torture, and to a exaggerated extent, intentions of “genocide”.

Comment from Tian
Time: May 5, 2008, 8:44 pm

But realize that their goal was peace, stability, and prosperity. If every part of the
country held on to their own cultural beliefs and ideas then there won’t be peace or
stability. Because of the history and culture, each side will try to conquer the others
and there will be more bloodshed. The peace and stability that those communists fought so
hard for would be completely destroyed. So out of consideration for the Chinese people
as a whole, the top scholars in the country gave the green light for the cultural
genocide for all groups within the country including the various Han groups.

Because of this the country more or less stabilized. And for the first time trade
improved largely because different groups can actually interact with each other using a
common language. A farmer from Guangdong would be able to trade his rice for fur from a
fur trader from Manchuria because there was a common language. And the country prospered
as you can see today.

But there are still language problems. To this day, although different Han groups all
speak Han Chinese, many also speak a dialect from their own region. That is the original
dialect before the unification during the old times. I think the CCP adopted this way of
thinking when they treated the Tibetans as well, viewing their language as simply a
dialect which like all other Han groups must be second place to the official language
system. When they imposed this, they didn’t take into consideration the fact that
although Chinese officials have participated in Tibetan politics since the Qing and Yuan
dynasties, their presence were never felt directly. So when the CCP tried to impose policies that will help everybody, the Tibetans looked at them as colonists.

I have written too much and if I have time later I will write the rest to explain other things. But Rich, if you have time, write about the law not being carried out. I’m interested in knowing what is happening.

If I have time later, I will continue this discussion. But I’m really liking this.

Comment from Rich Felker
Time: May 6, 2008, 4:09 am

Wow now I’m a CIA operative! The accusations keep getting more and more flattering. Erm, well, maybe not… So Tian, please read my words again more carefully. I said I’ve spent nearly 10 years among Tibetans, not 10 years in Tibet. As you have correctly reasoned, it would be very difficult for any non-Chinese foreigner to have spent that much time in Tibet, and I seriously doubt that any have. My firsthand experience from Tibet is all quite recent, as I previously had insufficient language proficiency to engage in any sort of meaningful contact with people there.

So no, I don’t work for the CIA or any CIA-funded organizations. I’ll freely admit that I have a self-interest in fighting the export of Chinese “values associated with a totalitarian society” to the rest of the world. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-china-olympics-thinkmay04,0,6495438.story) But first and foremost my interest is in justice within Tibet. Half a century is way too long for a people to live under constant fear and abuse, thrown around at the whims of powerful empires’ (both yours and mine) selfish geopolitical concerns. I believe we as human beings have a responsibility to do better.

Comment from zhouxiu
Time: May 8, 2008, 7:16 am

Thank you very much Rich, such articles were posted on Chinese version Facebook, some of them will be deleted tho(not many I guess, cause I have seen quite a lot critisism upon Chinese governing on Tibet). We re-post some of them as pictures which are harder for admin to identify.
I will translate your words above and post to the website as well. We need more voices, especially voice from Tibetans.

But the difficulty is that many are too angry to listen atm. I expect things will be much better after Olympic. Giving us a break to cheer and weep is a better way to release nationism and emotion. the whole thing about torch relay, it was really shocking and I have to say still is.

Btw, I havent seen any one from wales or scottland say they love England. But they are still British. This indicate my attitude to full independence of Tibet.
I am for human rights, for Tibetan rights, for culture/religion protection.

And if you are able to contact Tanzin, may you ask whether she( I guess Tanzin is a girl..anyway) is still willing to go to Tibet, as I am back China on Nov and have given my word but currently cant reach her.
my email is [email protected]

Comment from zhouxiu
Time: May 8, 2008, 7:22 am

im on work and cant read it all
but the MINE OWNERS are very special and should almost all sentence to long term even life-long imprisonment along with lots of corrupt officials. I totally completely agree. But they are not stereotype Chinese.

Comment from Tian
Time: May 11, 2008, 12:33 pm

Lhadon, please post my last comments. They are essential to the situation. I appreciate the fact that you have been very democratic in your approach so far. Please continue this fine tradition.

Comment from Tian
Time: May 13, 2008, 12:50 pm

Well Rich, I’m not entirely off the mark. I didn’t say you are a CIA operative. In my earlier post, I guessed that you are an employee of it indirectly. Please read carefully:

“In the most probably case, you were part of some human rights organization that was indirectly founded by the CIA assuming your statement of Chinese cultural and linguistic
illiteracy correct.”

And you are. Aren’t you a regional representative for SFT? SFT is indirectly funded by the CIA. Since you participate in events hosted by SFT and they get their money from the CIA YOU ARE a CIA employee. But whatever, that doesn’t matter.

Earlier on, I didn’t look at your blog. But now I did, I’m surprised that you are a PhD student/PhD degree holder in mathematics. You should be very rational, but why are you so irrational when it comes to analyzing the Tibet situation? From what I read, you sound like one of those quixotic, irrational hippies. No intended offense to you.

Most math graduate students are unaware or gauche when it comes to social analysis, this is the case in my school, and my school is one of the best in America. Perhaps you should analyze the situation more in depth?

You are right to say that a people should be given the right to self determination if they desire it. That is their right. But the Tibet situation is somewhat different. First, Tibetan separatists are not the majority in Tibet. One Tibetan wrote on a Chinese forum online that there are four schools of Tibetan buddhism. The yellow hat sect represented by the Dalai Lama is located near north central Tibet, near Lhasa. They are unhappy, because their religious leader is forced into exile. The majority of the red hat school near the eastern part of Tibet and the other schools do not want to be independent. They are grateful for what the government did for them. But their voice is not heard in this situation.

In fact, on this forum, one Tibetan youth in Tibet actually talked about attacking one of his friends who participated in this year’s riot for being ungrateful. These Tibetans don’t know English so obviously their voice is not heard by the western community. They wouldn’t know how to access western Free Tibet blogs anyway. Instead, only Tibetans living abroad and Tibetan terrorists in Tibet know English and they had some previous quarrel with the communist party. That is why they are so vociferous on independence. I saw on youtube something close to what I read in that forum and I posted it in the most recent videoblog on this website.

But going back to the argument of self determination, sure, the Tibetans should have the right for self determination if they desire it and it is nobody’s business to tell them what they should do. This means that you are telling yourself to shut up since you are American and American interests are not remotely linked to Tibet. On top of this fact is that you know nothing about China, which currently passes legislation for that region. If you don’t know about China, then you cannot know the full extent of what is going on in Tibet because you do not understand the legal or political issues involved.

This is like an ignorant man in America making the claim that African Americans are all violent and criminals without knowing the social and legal issues involved. You are that ignorant man, making paranoid conclusions from mere observations.

Comment from Tian
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:30 pm

So to reiterate, foreigners who do not understand China have no right to speak on this issue. However, Han Chinese are entitled to make judgements on the Tibet issue because there are legitimate interests at stake right now.

Today, some Tibet merchants in Tibet have taken out fair loans from “Han” banks. These like other business activities are legitimate transactions which must carry responsibility. Regardless of what the political outcome may be, business interests must be respected across borders. In the event that Tibet declares independence, these transactions risk default and out of legitimate interests, Han people do have a say in this issue. America and Europe, on the other hand, have no legitimate claim or interests in Tibet. Since the illegitimate should have no say on the matter of Tibetan self determination, you, my friend, have no right to say anything on this issue by your own logic.

But lets look at the issue from another angle. Lets discard the Han people’s legitimate interests in Tibet and analyze the effects of Tibetan terrorists’ “natural right” to self determination. Currently, the world economic system is fully integrated, which means that adverse effects on any major player gravely affects all. China is now the world’s factory floor, the manufacturing, processing hub of the world. Everyday, raw materials from all over the world congregate in China and Chinese workers process them into finished products which are then transported for sale worldwide. This is largely a result of the fact that the marginal cost of production in China is cheaper than everywhere else and that Chinese produced goods are of overall much better quality.

If China goes down because of civil war, then the world economy go down. European goods sellers will suddenly lose their constant shipment of Chinese produced goods which will cause the former to delay shipment to American retailers who will then sell the goods to consumers in America. The result will be shortages and dramatically higher prices on existing goods, lower consumption, bankruptcy of smaller firms, lower output, and higher interest rates. Higher interest rates also mean higher mortgage rates in the U.S. In the short run, there will be hyperinflation world wide and everyone will suffer. To the uninitiated, like you, the collapse of the world economic system might now seem like anything. But now I want you to think. Imagine if now you have to pay ten times more on everything but with the same budget. How will your finances look? How will you live your life? If you say that this is okay and you will go live the life of a Tibetan monk, then you are truly crazy. And don’t think this will not affect you, it will, trust me. You will regret it when the day comes. Lower crude oil output in the Middle East has already affected Americans right? That is the effect of an integrated world economy. If China collapse the result will be far worse. It will cause the world economy to collapse and in the end affect everybody.

In America, this will translate into higher crime levels which means that you, my friend, will have a higher chance of being killed by your own countrymen. But America will not be the only country affected. The Europeans are already experiencing high unemployment levels. And they are not as wealthy as they once were. China’s collapse and the economic disaster that follows will cause a severe toll on them as well.

So in the end, I ask the selfish Tibetan separatists and western activists like you, is this madness worth it? Is it right for a minority within the Tibetan population to declare independence at the expense of world suffering?

Keep in mind that China is not Nazi Germany and that the central government has improved the lives of Tibetans living in Tibet and attempted to create a peaceful society of unity free from prejudice, bigotry, and hatred. Even if you selfish Tibetans don’t understand the idea of appreciation, you will at least think of your own fellow Tibetans who will also suffer economically in the event of China’s collapse?

The Chinese government has done many bad things in the past. And even today, some of its policies are still very crude and in some cases wrong. But this is because China is a developing country and things are improving. If you ask any responsible, knowledgeable Chinese adult, they will tell you that the Communist Party is corrupt and crude but they get the job done and do improve the life of the people. Things are changing for the better, but if you crazy people resort to violence, the result will be catastrophic for both Tibetans and Han Chinese.

The CCP will not standby idly and let Tibetans constantly carry out terrorist riots against innocent civilians. If pushed to the limit, the central government, out of consideration for innocents might do something everyone will regret. Even though it is wrong, it would be perfectly justified. Don’t push the government to its limit. It is not good for anyone.

Comment from kat
Time: June 9, 2008, 9:03 am

So much has happened since this blog was posted, and the most depressing part of that is, that of all that has gone on, none of it has been positive at all. Monks and nuns and civilians are still dying and we are inching so close to the torch passing through Lhasa… it breaks my heart. Still, people who are able must do their utmost to keep applying pressure on the IOC and home governments.
As for allegations about Tibetans orchestrating ‘acts of terrorism,’ that’s bullshit. They are fighting for their country. They are strong and they are brave and they are dying for their land to be returned to them after almost 50 years of brutal Chinese oppression. LHA GYALO!

Comment from Rich Felker
Time: June 10, 2008, 10:00 pm

Kat, indeed the present situation in Tibet is tearful and severe, but saying that nothing positive has come couldn’t be farther from the truth. The price has been high and likely will continue to be, but many advances have been made.

1. In Lhasa, China’s being forced to shutdown tourism, combined with what is effectively a months-long general strike by the people, has decimated Chinese-run businesses. This is on top of the direct physical damage that Tibetans did to many businesses during the uprising. I’ve heard many reports that Chinese are leaving Tibet for lack of business. The fact that they finally know the full extent of how much their presence is hated could also be a factor in this.

2. For the first time, Tibetans across Tibet and around the world understand the degree to which they are all unified and see themselves as one national identity struggling against China. Just a few months prior to the uprising, I had close Tibetan friends whose judgement I really trust pursuing plans to build and strengthen inter-province understanding and unity between Tibetans. These people were shocked to see to what extent it already exists. The importance of this realization cannot be understated in regard to how it changes the way people will operate.

3. Especially outside the TAR, Tibetans have for the first time staged nonviolent protests which have succeeded in their goals. A general pattern among many protest locations in Amdo is that a few leaders, often monks or nuns, protest for independence and get arrested, then the masses protest demanding their release. In many cases, a number of the demands have been met. Certainly the results are not good enough, but the fact that it happens at all is revolutionary.

4. The bar for what’s illegal in Tibet has been drastically raised. In prior times, even acknowledging that dissent exists in Tibet was a political act that could land one in trouble. Now that’s considered a given. Often the masses rising up are not even punished, aside from being subjected to the lethal risk from China’s barbaric crowd-control methods; the authorities are focusing on people they perceive as leaders. This treatment has sometimes been mirrored in the actual jailing and interrogation practices, where as many as 3 different levels/rings of imprisonment have been implemented in some places to temporarily restrain and beat up the masses in insecure holding areas while keeping the people they really want to abuse in the inner dungeons.

Needless to say all of these developments have both joyful and saddening aspects to them. And while it would be naive to deny or play down the severity with which China is retaliating against Tibetans, it’s also a great disservice to these brave heros and martyrs to declare that they have accomplished nothing. What they have accomplished already will have profound effects for decades to come, and there may well yet be more to see.